any chummers out there still play Shadowrun? (also: d20 vs SR 3ed)

[Allura]

I've been playing SR since early '93. Second edition and now third edition. I've had one character continuous throughout (although she's changed alot by now via major plot devices), and a few other in between. The GM (DH) and I have been trying to talk the 3rd couple of our D&D group into play SR for a bit; no dice yet. He thinks it sounds silly.

Anyway, I too have thought about a D20 conversion, but at the core of it there's a basic difference in the rule systems: D20 is class based and SR is skill based. I'd definately end up yanking rules from all over the place, particularly some of the alternate rules from Unearthed Arcana, such as armor acting as DR.

The big change is probably in the magic system. I think the first step to a Shadowrun D20 would need some new sort magic system, esp including the concept of drain. Also, a Shadowrun mage can literally cast low level spells all day, unless you dice utterly fail you.

I think it's doable - but also, why? The Shadowrun rules aren't really that difficult to learn, particularly for a player - roll a number of D6 equal to your skill, tell the GM how many successes you got vs "x". Adding pool dice takes experience, but it's not complicated. Choosing the target number can be somewhat difficult, but that's a problem for the GM. DH, who GMs both systems, prefers SR for "off-the-cuff" games - he doesn't have to have all the NPCs designed ahead of time, just know that your typical bodyguard has a body of 4, willpower 4, firearms 5, and 3 points of armor. Or whatever.

Anyway, I like both systems, but Shadowrun's still my "first love"

 

[Henry]

I think it's doable - but also, why? The Shadowrun rules aren't really that difficult to learn, particularly for a player - roll a number of D6 equal to your skill, tell the GM how many successes you got vs "x". Adding pool dice takes experience, but it's not complicated.

My problem with the system is not so much learning it, but using it on a frequent basis. I had the same problem with White Wolf's Storyteller mechanic, namely that rolling in excess of 5 or 6 dice tended to bog the game down, and having both multiple dice and having to compare those versus the opponent's successes really disrupted my play and reminded me that I was playing a game more than I liked. Admittedly, I've tried Shadowrun all of twice, and had negative experiences both times, but anything over 6 dice and making comparisons with every roll has always turned me off.

 

[Allura]

I have quite a few of the older books but I'm sure they are obsolete now (Grimoire, Virtual Realities, Street Samurai Catalogue, etc). What about the sourcebooks like the Seattle Sourcebook, NA Guide to North America, Tir Na Nog, etc? Are they still usable?

The sourcebooks that talk about the various settings are certainly still usable. However, the "current" timeline is up to 2063 (the latest book is Shadows of Europe). With the two GenCon releases (State of the Art 2064, and Johnson's Little Black Book), it'll hit 2064, I guess. Whether you need them depends on when/where you're setting the game. Our current game is only in late 2059, and mostly we stay in Seattle. I have to be honest, we rarely use the sourcebooks in game, unless we're looking for something really specific. I do, however, read most of the sourcebooks - I find them entertaining.

Also, we definately use the rulebooks, particularly Magic in the Shadows, and the rigger & decker books. Our group is either full up on cyberware/bioware, or has no intentions of getting any, so those books really only get used at character creation.

 

[Allura]

My problem with the system is not so much learning it, but using it on a frequent basis. I had the same problem with White Wolf's Storyteller mechanic, namely that rolling in excess of 5 or 6 dice tended to bog the game down, and having both multiple dice and having to compare those versus the opponent's successes really disrupted my play and reminded me that I was playing a game more than I liked. Admittedly, I've tried Shadowrun all of twice, and had negative experiences both times, but anything over 6 dice and making comparisons with every roll has always turned me off.

Hmm...I guess it depends on how your brain works. I find it faster, b/c I'm not adding - I just group the dice by number and count them up. I find it amusing to stare at the GM and count dice into my hand "8, 9, 10...that's about enough; I'll save the rest for his buddy..." It melds with the roleplaying of sizing up your opponent and looking for their weak spot. And hearing a lot of dice hit the table is somehow satisfying. But I'm weird

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

What was missing from the "feel" of d20? What things translate well to d20 and what doesn't? What did you end up spending a lot of time on converting? Did you use Urban Arcana as well? Do you think d20 Future would help running a Shadowrun campaign?

Mustrum hit on most of the problems I encountered. Magic, lethality, HP bloat. Plus, I think in hindsight the whole level system isn't that great for Shadowrun.

Another problem that Mustrum missed, at least for me, was implementing the whole decking aspect. For that, I eventually ran with the normal hacking rules in Modern and they seemed to work OK. Personally, I thought the Spycraft classes worked well, with a bit of fiddling to make them into Shadowrun archetypes - the Wheelman became a rigger with only a bit of fooling. But, yeah, overall magic was the biggest problem.

I didn't use Urban Arcana because it hadn't come out when I did the translation. Future likewise, I can't say as I haven't seen it. I know there's cyber rules, and the mecha rules might be good for making drones and things.

I have quite a few of the older books but I'm sure they are obsolete now (Grimoire, Virtual Realities, Street Samurai Catalogue, etc). What about the sourcebooks like the Seattle Sourcebook, NA Guide to North America, Tir Na Nog, etc? Are they still usable?

How is the New Seattle Sourcebook?

You could get by easily with just the New Seattle book, but I like to supplement it with the old Seattle Sourcebook, since I think the old one goes into locations and such better. The new one, meanwhile, is practically indispensible when it comes to Tongs, Yakuza, Mafia, and Seoulpa Rings.

Shadows of North America/Europe are good for supplementing your existing books (changes in Tir Tairngire and CalFree, for instance) and especially for giving you a feel for the nations that aren't really detailed so far (Quebec and the Czech Republic, for instance).

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Hmm...I guess it depends on how your brain works. I find it faster, b/c I'm not adding - I just group the dice by number and count them up. I find it amusing to stare at the GM and count dice into my hand "8, 9, 10...that's about enough; I'll save the rest for his buddy..." It melds with the roleplaying of sizing up your opponent and looking for their weak spot. And hearing a lot of dice hit the table is somehow satisfying. But I'm weird

Or rolling the vast quantity of dice for an attack roll; that's just fun.

Last time we played (with a 2e/3e amalgam), the GM has to post on Usenet to look for ways to get us involved in a fight. We spent so much time arming ourselves and tried to avoid combat like the plague, unless we could start it with enormous quantities of overkill. Man, I miss that game.

Brad

 

[Karl Green]

I am another guy who played ShadowRun for years and years (mostly 2nd ed but had a pretty long 1st ed game with some house rules and a short 3rd ed game). In the end, while I still REALLY love the world, I am totally turned off by the rules. As I heard it once described as, my problems with ShadowRun was that it was 5 different systems that did not fit well together.

I think that you could totally make ShadownRun for d20 if you wanted. I think that I would FIRST get Grim Tales, which I would use for the basic system. No real AdC at all, just the basic ones. Keep it open and lose. What to be a Spellcaster, take the Magical Aptitude Talent Tree and some of the Magical Feats. You could start casting Magic at first level but it would be dangerous. I would suggest that Magic cause "non-lethal" damage Burn, but over casting, etc. could cause Lethal damage or Attribute Drain. Cyberwear examples are listed there also. They have a Ranking, so MAX that you can use for Essence (and it would give you Spell Resistance say 5 +cyber rank vs. Healing and other beneficial spells). Certain Talent Trees could be resistant to Physical Adapts, etc.

It would not be very hard at all, and I have thought about it, unfortunately I have like 5 other game ideas bouncing around in my head ALL thinks I really want to do (right now at the top of my list is a D20F Bug Hunters game or an Ebrrone fantasy game or a Warhammer fantasy using the rules from either Grim Tales or Conan)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Handling Magic: Shadowrun magic is vastly different from regular D&D magic. Its much more formulistic, which makes creating spells easier, but the whole drain thing isn´t easy, at least if you want it balanced. It´s especially difficult to retain the original Shadowrun flavour. In d20 SR, you will wonder why Trolls are suddenly better spellcasters than, say, elves, if you let drain cause hp damage.

I have to disagree with you on this one. Because of the drain rules, trolls were better spellcasters than elves!

Lethality: Even with the D20 Modern rules of Massive Damage Threshold, you won´t have the potential lethality of Shadowrun.

Not the way I remember it You could shoot some unconscious schmoe in the face and he still wouldn't die. Of course, knocking him unconscious was pretty easy, especially if you were a rigger and had a vehicle with one of those ridiculously powerful armor-piercing autofire-enabled weapons...

 

[GlassJaw]

Great thread guys. I'm really itching to try SR again.

From what I've read, I think I would probably try SR 3ed instead of doing a conversion into d20.

Also, we definately use the rulebooks, particularly Magic in the Shadows, and the rigger & decker books. Our group is either full up on cyberware/bioware, or has no intentions of getting any, so those books really only get used at character creation

What books would you recommend to get started? I took a look at the SR website and was thinking about these:

SR 3ed rulebook (duh)
Cannon Companion
Magic in the Shadows
Man and Machine
Matrix
New Seattle
Rigger 3 Revised
Seattle Sourcebook (because I can't find my old copy)
New Seattle (I'll probably just stick with Seattle as the setting in the beginning)

Is the Shadowrun Companion useful at all? What's in it?

If you are not familiar with the 3rd Edition of Shadowrun, be warned: It has several flaws - nothing that couldn`t be houseruled away, but you need some experience to notice them...

Do I dare ask what these "flaws" are? :\

 

[Andrew D. Gable]

Is the Shadowrun Companion useful at all? What's in it?

AFAIK, the Companion has more chargen options. A new chargen system, new races (metavariants, regional subraces of elf, dwarf, ork, and troll, as well as HMHVV folks and sasquatch), and an edge/flaw system. That's all I know, maybe there's more.