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Any crunchy RPG's out there anymore?

sgtnasty

Explorer
What ever happened to crunchy games like Aftermath!, Bushido, Phoenix Command, Battlelords or Dangerous Journeys?

Everything now is D&D5, PbtA or Blades in the Dark. The closest thing I could find was Fragged Empire which considers itself "medium crunchy". I miss the old days when FGU and GDW put out some really interesting stuff. D&D4 was really crunchy and played well with my group.

Is there any call for crunchy anymore?
 

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Thondor

Explorer
An interesting point. There don't seem to be a lot of really crunchy games these days.

Hackmaster "5e" is pretty crunchy -- and I love it. They just released their 2nd monster book, mind you the PHB released in 2012 so it's not a "new" game, but ongoing support matters.
 



embee

Lawyer by day. Rules lawyer by night.
Were you aware that you can continue to play old games, even when newer ones come out?

Maybe designers don't feel the need to reinvent the wheel when they are so many wheels already produced that the wheel-enthusiast can enjoy.
FAKE NEWS!

Everyone knows that when a new edition comes out, the RPG Police go around and confiscate your old books.
 

Snarf Zagyg

Notorious Liquefactionist
What ever happened to crunchy games like Aftermath!, Bushido, Phoenix Command, Battlelords or Dangerous Journeys?

Phoenix Command .... Living Steel.

That's not just crunchy. That's ... Captain Crunchy. That's breakfast cereal-level crunch.

But yeah, you might be better off investing in some classics of the genre (such as Aftermath!) than looking for something new. Maybe add certain versions of Traveller or SpaceMaster.
 





Voadam

Legend
Yes definitly, but I am not sure to try PF1 or the new PF2
PF 1 is like a house ruled version of 3.5 the same way 3.5 was like a house ruled 3.0. All 3 are roughly compatible mechanically but have small changes throughout the rules system, so you can mostly mix and match monsters and modules and spells and such among editions.

PF2 seems like a significantly different change of rules with high crunch throughout.
 

ShinHakkaider

Adventurer
It always amazes me when people have decided that basic math (addition and subtraction) is crunchy or complicated. I don't know if it makes me a snob to NOT want to play with people who fear basic math especially when most phones (even older flip phones) have a calculator on them.

Again, maybe it's not fair of me to say or think this but it's a huge pet peeve of mine when people complain about Pathfinder or Champions as crunchy games.

Maybe we should clarify, Is it crunchy because of the number options or is it because of the math?
 

Morrus

Well, that was fun
Staff member
It always amazes me when people have decided that basic math (addition and subtraction) is crunchy or complicated.
Cunchy and complicated aren't the same thing. A game can have lots of maths in it, which makes it very crunchy. People aren't saying they're unable to do that; they're saying they don't enjoy that style of game.

I personally quite like a bit of crunch, but there's nothing wrong with preferring faster, more narrative games.
 

payn

Adventurer
It always amazes me when people have decided that basic math (addition and subtraction) is crunchy or complicated. I don't know if it makes me a snob to NOT want to play with people who fear basic math especially when most phones (even older flip phones) have a calculator on them.

Again, maybe it's not fair of me to say or think this but it's a huge pet peeve of mine when people complain about Pathfinder or Champions as crunchy games.

Maybe we should clarify, Is it crunchy because of the number options or is it because of the math?
Thats a good question. I would assume most folks dont like finding all the conditional modifiers in 3.5/PF because it can bog the game down in mechanics. "Mathfinder" is just a pun to quickly describe that dissatisfaction, albeit, a misnomer of the actual problem.

Speaking in my own anecdotal experience, I think most gamers dont have the time and desire to learn crunchy systems. D&D gets away with it because of its enormous popularity and decades of existence. Anything not D&D, is going to face a challenge of getting adopters as its complexity increases. Modern designers are trying to lower that hurdle of entrance, which explains newer games being lower on the crunch factor.

Who knows, maybe the pendulum will swing back in a few years and games will get mechanical heft again?
 

MGibster

Legend
What ever happened to crunchy games like Aftermath!, Bushido, Phoenix Command, Battlelords or Dangerous Journeys?
Wow, I don't think I've ever heard of Aftermath! until just now. I'd like to give you a bit of good news, I think there's a new edition of Bushido in the works. News was posted a few months back but my Google-Fu is failing me now. I think what happened to those crunchy games is that they fell out of favor. Resolving actions in crunchy games can be both complicated and time consuming which slows things down to a crawl and makes the game dull.

The only one of those games I have any experience with is Battlelords of the 23rd Century. It's a lot of fun to read, and I am most definitely a Mutzachan head butt kind of a guy, but it was a pain in the butt to play. I had the game circa 1991 and we just couldn't make a go of it.
 

What ever happened to crunchy games like Aftermath!, Bushido, Phoenix Command, Battlelords or Dangerous Journeys?

Everything now is D&D5, PbtA or Blades in the Dark. The closest thing I could find was Fragged Empire which considers itself "medium crunchy". I miss the old days when FGU and GDW put out some really interesting stuff. D&D4 was really crunchy and played well with my group.

Is there any call for crunchy anymore?
Heavy and in print: Hackmaster, Aces & Eights, Pathfinder, Hȁrnmaster, Burning Wheel, Torchbearer.
Heavy and in PDF: Rolemaster, HARP (essentially Rolemaster Light), Spacemaster, Space Opera, Bushido, GURPS, All both AD&D editions' core rules, Burning Empires, Against the Darkmaster (MERP clone).

Note that if you consider Traveller (any edition) to be heavy, then what I consider medium you'll likely consider heavy:
Medium rules in PDF with strong setting: Arrowflight 2E, Legend of the 5 Rings, Traveller (all editions), Eclipse Phase, Savage Worlds, the various Palladium Megaverse games (excluding Robotech and TMNT due to licenses), Warhammer FRP 4e, Sweihänder, Hero System (aka Champions - but it's excellent for more than Supers), EABA, CORPS.

There are others... but those are the ones that come immediately to mind.
As for Dangerous Journeys - TSR owned it, so WOTC holds the rights.
 


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