Any crunchy RPG's out there anymore?

[Blue Orange]

Dang, a bona fide double thread necromancy!

Threads are not dead which can eternal lie, and with strange aeons even threads may die.

 

[Sanguinarious]

Though a warning; the way combat rounds are handled in the second edition of EABA, though I think it solves a problem common with both the first edition and GURPS, can take some getting used to.

Yes the expanding time scale in EABA (End All Be All) can be tough to wrap one's head around but in a way it makes sense. It does create a ''highlight reel'' effect as the quintessential actions of a turn are emphasised while secondary actions leading to them are dismissed.

 

[jdrakeh]

HarnMaster 3e and HarnMaster Gold are both currently available and crunchy AF.

 

[Staffan]

It always amazes me when people have decided that basic math (addition and subtraction) is crunchy or complicated. I don't know if it makes me a snob to NOT want to play with people who fear basic math especially when most phones (even older flip phones) have a calculator on them.

Again, maybe it's not fair of me to say or think this but it's a huge pet peeve of mine when people complain about Pathfinder or Champions as crunchy games.

It's not just the math, it's all the conditional math. This is a problem particularly in D&D3-variants, to a large degree because of bonus types and temporary effects.

What I mean is that sure, I'm an 8th level rogue[1], and I'm wearing +2 studded leather, I have a natural Dexterity of 18 +2 for my +2 gloves of dexterity and I wear a ring of protection +1 and an amulet of natural armor +1. What's my AC? 22 (armor +5 (+3 base +2 enhancement), Dex +5, deflection +1, natural armor +1). Easy, right? I'm also fighting with a rapier +1 and I have the Weapon Finesse feat, so my attack bonus is +12 (+6 base, +5 Dex because of Weapon Finesse, +1 enhancement). Still easy?

OK, now I drink a potion of cat's grace, which gives me a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity. So, both those stats should go up by 2, right?

Wrong. First, I'm not getting the full +4 bonus, because it doesn't stack with the +2 bonus from the gloves of dexterity since they're both Enhancement bonuses. So I'm effectively only getting +2 to Dex, which increases my Dex bonus by 1. Fair enough. So both my attack bonus and AC should go up by 1 then?

Wrong again. My attack bonus with the rapier does increase. However, my armor only allows me to add a Dex bonus up to 5, so my AC isn't affected at all.

But what if my 8th level cleric buddy casts shield of faith on me? Since he's 8th level, that's a +3 deflection bonus to AC. Except again, no. The deflection bonus doesn't stack with my ring of protection, so I'm only getting +2.

The game is full of these little niggling bits that make things a lot harder than they need to be.

[1] I have no idea whether this is appropriate gear for an 8th level rogue, and that's really beside the point.

 

[payn]

It's not just the math, it's all the conditional math. This is a problem particularly in D&D3-variants, to a large degree because of bonus types and temporary effects.

What I mean is that sure, I'm an 8th level rogue[1], and I'm wearing +2 studded leather, I have a natural Dexterity of 18 +2 for my +2 gloves of dexterity and I wear a ring of protection +1 and an amulet of natural armor +1. What's my AC? 22 (armor +5 (+3 base +2 enhancement), Dex +5, deflection +1, natural armor +1). Easy, right? I'm also fighting with a rapier +1 and I have the Weapon Finesse feat, so my attack bonus is +12 (+6 base, +5 Dex because of Weapon Finesse, +1 enhancement). Still easy?

OK, now I drink a potion of cat's grace, which gives me a +4 enhancement bonus to Dexterity. So, both those stats should go up by 2, right?

Wrong. First, I'm not getting the full +4 bonus, because it doesn't stack with the +2 bonus from the gloves of dexterity since they're both Enhancement bonuses. So I'm effectively only getting +2 to Dex, which increases my Dex bonus by 1. Fair enough. So both my attack bonus and AC should go up by 1 then?

Wrong again. My attack bonus with the rapier does increase. However, my armor only allows me to add a Dex bonus up to 5, so my AC isn't affected at all.

But what if my 8th level cleric buddy casts shield of faith on me? Since he's 8th level, that's a +3 deflection bonus to AC. Except again, no. The deflection bonus doesn't stack with my ring of protection, so I'm only getting +2.

The game is full of these little niggling bits that make things a lot harder than they need to be.

[1] I have no idea whether this is appropriate gear for an 8th level rogue, and that's really beside the point.

I’ll admit, I do miss some of that bonus soup. Though things certainly got carried away back then.

 

[Thomas Shey]

The game is full of these little niggling bits that make things a lot harder than they need to be.

I think the second half of this question is a judgment call. I think it very much needs to be that way if you're going to have the special-casing always present in the D&D sphere and not have it get out of hand. You can either avoid it by not having all the special casing, or by not caring about the stacking, but I've seen the effect of the latter and I don't want to again, and the latter requires backing out of decades of habit in the D&D-sphere.

 

[Staffan]

I think the second half of this question is a judgment call. I think it very much needs to be that way if you're going to have the special-casing always present in the D&D sphere and not have it get out of hand. You can either avoid it by not having all the special casing, or by not caring about the stacking, but I've seen the effect of the latter and I don't want to again, and the latter requires backing out of decades of habit in the D&D-sphere.

You could solve it like in PF2 where level itself is a greater component (both via AC directly increasing with level, and via proficiency bumps giving an extra +2 every now and then), and where there are far fewer bonus types. PF2 only has item bonuses (which you generally don't need to worry about: write them down and forget about them), status bonuses (temporary, from spells and other special abilities), and circumstance bonuses (very temporary). You also don't have indirect bonuses. If something lets you hit harder, it gives you a bonus to damage and not to Strength.

Off-hand, the only PF2 thing where you regularly need to worry about bonus stacking is an alchemist using mutagens. These provide temporary item bonuses to a variety of things that are generally a point higher than the tools normally available at your level.

 

[Thomas Shey]

You could solve it like in PF2 where level itself is a greater component (both via AC directly increasing with level, and via proficiency bumps giving an extra +2 every now and then), and where there are far fewer bonus types. PF2 only has item bonuses (which you generally don't need to worry about: write them down and forget about them), status bonuses (temporary, from spells and other special abilities), and circumstance bonuses (very temporary). You also don't have indirect bonuses. If something lets you hit harder, it gives you a bonus to damage and not to Strength.

Off-hand, the only PF2 thing where you regularly need to worry about bonus stacking is an alchemist using mutagens. These provide temporary item bonuses to a variety of things that are generally a point higher than the tools normally available at your level.

Yeah, but there's plenty of things on the other end; that's what most condition imposes do. I'm not going to say keeping the number down to a dull roar isn't desirable, but it can still produce the result you were addressing; its just a question of where you draw the line.