Any DM's not allowing Spiked Chains?

[wildstarsreach]

I wouldn't ban the weapon but I might ban the player with the cheesy build. Seriously, if all your feats and stats are built for a single weapon build, how shallow is your character concept?

In fact, before it got to that point, I might start docking intelligence points or something. If they really intend to only be good at one thing and one thing only, I might enforce that concept.

"I Todd!"
"What're you good at Todd?"
"I spike chain tings!"
"Like what?"
"<knocks a fly off the wall with his spiked chain, then trips over his own feet and knocks himself unconscious on a piece of furniture>"

Sometimes being the best at one weapon is the character concept. What's wrong with the cheezy build? If you character wants to be the one trick pony, shouldn't he have the right as long as overall it doesn't ruin your game balance.

 

[molonel]

I wouldn't ban the weapon but I might ban the player with the cheesy build. Seriously, if all your feats and stats are built for a single weapon build, how shallow is your character concept?

In fact, before it got to that point, I might start docking intelligence points or something. If they really intend to only be good at one thing and one thing only, I might enforce that concept.

"I Todd!"
"What're you good at Todd?"
"I spike chain tings!"
"Like what?"
"<knocks a fly off the wall with his spiked chain, then trips over his own feet and knocks himself unconscious on a piece of furniture>"

Why is that so absurd?

There are many examples down through time of warriors who specialized in one particular kind of weapon to the exclusion or near-exclusion of all others.

 

[Legildur]

And we have the Exotic Weapon Master, Kensai, and Invisible Blade prestige classes (among many others) that focus in a single weapon.....

 

[Plane Sailing]

Do you ban reach normal reach weapons to anyone with armor spikes, imporved unarmed strike, natural weapons, or anything else that allows them to threaten up close while they are using the reach weapon?

The big difference being that one magic spiked chain gets all its bonuses at reach and close up (and related feats too), while in the reach weapon + additional close range weapon you mention, the additional weapon is unlikely to have the same scale or magic or feat investment as the primary reach weapon.

Personally I've always allowed a single feat to give any reach weapon the ability to threaten at reach and up close (no action required to change threatened range). This makes the choice of spiked chain much more of a style decision.

Cheers

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Sometimes being the best at one weapon is the character concept. What's wrong with the cheezy build? If you character wants to be the one trick pony, shouldn't he have the right as long as overall it doesn't ruin your game balance.

And that is the 2nd reason aside from the unique reach properties (well, unique within the PHB). Focusing your build around this weapon does not make you a one trick pony over the mid to long term. While most spiked chain users go primarily for exploiting the reach capabilities this weapon provides, they arent limited to purely sweeping fodder.

The weapon rocks for disarm.
- Its a 2 handed weapon
- It gets a bonus to disarm
- When you disarm at 10 feet away, you do not provoke an AoO

The weapon also rocks for trip
- It gets a bonus to trip attacks
- When you trip at 10 feet away, you do not provoke an AoO

The spiked chain is a great weapon for either of these tactics even without Improved Trip / Improved Disarm. And getting both is simply another 3 feats. My problem with this weapon is mostly due to the reach, but its the reach plus these benefits that put it over. They can start the build out for sweeping fodder, and later adapt it to exploit the Trip / Disarm features.

Regardless, I do concede that much of my dislike of this weapon is sub rational. When I consider the weapon as a whole, I just really do not like its potential implications.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[evermind]

Actually I do not ban the SC in games I master, but I severly limit it - meaning gaining the feat and acquiring magical chains (usually only from certain cultures and some planes, such as the Nine Hells ) , as well as not permitting certain (by judgement calls) uses depending upon circumstances. Matter of GMing style though, hence not a rule.

examples
- striking (from the second row - 10' distance ) into an established melee, especially not against enemies of equal or smaller size without giving at least a bonus for cover

- no reach in tight corridors (5') since there is no space to properly deploy the weapon.

- penalties to attack in obstacle rich environments (woods/undergrowth )

This does not limit the SC's use in open terrain or more spacious setting, but imposes a degree of "reality" on its use. We do have some rule benders in our group(s) and even they agree that striking/lancing through a narrow doorway with an SC is.... cheesy, and physically hard to envision. I absolutely agree withe Celebrim there.

My main problems with the SC are that it basically is a "best of two worlds" weapon - reach + 5' area threat, dual wield (additional attack close up) and two-handed weapon (increased yield from STR-bonus ), capable of Weapon Finesse and capable of Power Attack. In combination with Combat Reflexes and Hold the Line (+ possibly Imp. Trip) this makes for a very deadly and versatile weapon - far more so than any other weapon in the RAW arsenal. Yes, it is an exotic weapon - but even for the invesetment of one feat to use it, it is an excellent deal. Perhaps compare it a Guisarme, Glaive or Ranseur.... and at higher levels, the actual damage dice of a weapon become ever more insignificant in the calculation of damage, as STR-boni, buffs, and manouevres increase the damage portion of any hit. Not to mention boni from Power Attack etc.

I also have a big problem with the damage type "piercing" - the short spikes (2" ?) are not really what does the damage, but rather a slashing/ripping or bludgeoning force from the impact itself - but that is merely a question of realism, not game balance

As for "Sunder" - characters will (IME) usually go for adamantine/cold iron/greensteel forged chains, which, in combination with any magical enchantment, make the weapon pretty resitant to sundering (at least as much as any other weapon ). So, no real problem there, or rather a risk any seasoned player will know how to resolve quickly enough.

Storage likeweise is not usually a problem - a cleric (FR, Kossithian) in my camapign carried it looped (like a whip) on the belt, or wrapped around his full-plate arm-greaves, and 'gloves of storing', or the "mutable" weapon enchantment offer easy alternatives. A character in another campaign stored his in a quiver on the back, whipping it out over his shoulder. A hip-quiver should also work well enough....

And lets not delve upon the increased capabilities if used by a cleric under the effects of "Righteous Might" or enlarge and other beneficial buffs..... The cleric mentioned above was absolutely viscious when wielding it, luckily, he never got around to acquiring Power attack...

It's just a weapon too good for the investment needed, to not balance it with some "realism-drawbacks".

YMMV

PS as for Kill-Bill #1 - I really don't see a cut-and-edit fight sequence as validation for any weapon's capability, especially not if, as the Ball-and-chain employed in the movie the damage was caused in a way not possible for a "SC" as described in the RAW and PHB.

For a demonstration what a ("harmless-by-PHB-rules") weapon can do, perhaps watch "Musa - the Warrior" where some awesome displays of spear-fighting are shown. Without editing cuts, I might add =)
And I wouldn't allow that stuff ingame without the expenditure of several feats either.

 

[Elethiomel]

The weapon also rocks for trip
- It gets a bonus to trip attacks

Not in my PHB. Where does it get a bonus to trip attacks from?

 

[evermind]

Not in my PHB. Where does it get a bonus to trip attacks from?

It actually does not get a bonus, but it is one of only a small number of weapons that can actually be used for tripping (PHB p.115) - and only one of two capable of doing so at a distance/reach, and, IMHO, far more capable than the Guisarme

 

[phindar]

There are many examples down through time of warriors who specialized in one particular kind of weapon to the exclusion or near-exclusion of all others.

That's true. In D&D characters can be either specialized or generalized in combat, and numerically, specialization (not so much the feat as tying to a specific thing) has better bonuses. To balance this, there should be a certain number of combats where their specialization is to some degree neutralized. I generally go with 1 out 5 encounters, but that's just a number I pulled out of a hat, it doesn't really mean anything.

 

[Slaved]

Personally I've always allowed a single feat to give any reach weapon the ability to threaten at reach and up close (no action required to change threatened range).

Nice feat!

It actually does not get a bonus, but it is one of only a small number of weapons that can actually be used for tripping (PHB p.115) - and only one of two capable of doing so at a distance/reach, and, IMHO, far more capable than the Guisarme

Bola, spiked chain, guisarme, and whip from the players handbook for tripping at a distance or with reach. Guisarme is the only martial weapon on the list, the rest are exotic. Bards start off proficient with whip which I have seen be very useful.

Of course an enlarge spell or something similar will allow many characters to trip at a distance or with reach with all of the others as well

A houserule might even allow a character to use a weapon of a larger size and gain some amount of reach from it as well. 10' long scythe with monkey grip perhaps?