Any New Info on Skill Encounters?

[Kordeth]

I agree: a streetwise character who makes a successful check would know that info. Where my taste and 4e seem to diverge (in spirit! I'm not saying I can't do this in 4e if I continue to DM via my own style) is with this one point:

- In 4e, it seems as though the guidelines for using skills allow for a player who has run down a dead end alley to use the streetwise skill. Success means he found a way out; failure means he did not.

- By my style, I know before the character even runs down that alley if there is another way out or not. A streetwise check would have revealed that info to him had he made the check before he ran down the alley, and it will reveal the same info if he is in the alley. A failure means he does not know. A success means he does know if there is or isn't.

I think you're overlooking a level of abstraction here. The player doesn't say "I run down Murderer's Alley to elude the guards! I roll a Streetwise check to find a way out!" to which the DM responds based on either of your posited models.

Instead, the player says "I want to try ducking down an alley and losing the guards, maybe by squeezing through a gap in a fence or diving down a sewer. My Streetwise result is 24."

To which the DM responds "Well, there's no such escape route down Murderer's Alley, so you don't want to go down there--but there is a sewer grate in the alley between the tinker's shop and the tailor's. You dash into the alley, wrench the grate free, and drop into the tunnel seconds before the guards catch up."

 

[jaer]

Hey jaer;

Your example sounds just like how I would play it. I'm not sure how you would resolve one thing, though:



Let's say that we are using the x successes before y failures system. The other characters have generated 5 out of the 6 successes needed. This roll is a success, and therefore they've got all the successes that they need.

How would you resolve the encounter?

Personally, I'd say that he slips past the guards in the alley and makes it into the sewer grate.

edit: I'd give the Streetwise roll a penalty, because he's in a pretty bad situation, and what he wants to accomplish is going to be hard.

And this is where I don't like the 6 success FTW idea in this sort of situation. As I said before, I would run it so that the only way a player gets out of the city is if they get out of the city. I agree that there are ways that the party could get 6 successes in Town Square and make it impossible for the guards to be able to stop them from leaving (starting a riot that has the townfolk attacking the guards, for instance), but even if it is a stroll out of the city gates, they aren't out until they have physically left the city.

The rest of the party might have stayed together and gotten out at this point (they got to the gates with the 6 successes) but one of them got left behind (but his hiding success helped them because it drew off three guards to block the alley).

I would not simply say: "ah, the group got six successes - you managed to get out somehow." I would rule that that player still needed to show me that he can get out.

He could sneak past the gaurds that are watching for him (difficult DC on that!) but he would pretty much be home free if he manages because the rest of the guards saw the party flee. They have no way of knowing this random person was with the rest of the group at that point.

He could try to climb out of the alley (probably a difficult DC). The guards would probably see him, but those three might not be able to climb after him, and as I said, most of the rest of the guards were busy persuing the rest of the party...they aren't looking for this one.

He could even wait it out and do another hide check (harder) for when the leader comes back after the rest have escape, confirms that guards have seen nothing, and thenchecks the alley. If he doesn't find the PC, he'll assume the PC managed to escape somehow as well (eladrin fey step perhaps or something similar).

But no matter what, I would not let this one player who was, by the story, boxed into an alley get away just because everyone else was successful. I guess you could say that his ducking down the alley did not count as a failure, but for him personally, it counted as a negative success. He's at five...the rest of the party got away at six.

 

[TwoSix]

Man, why do some people think that players are completely re-writing the game world on the fly?
Disclaimer: I haven't seen the system in full yet, all this is based on all verified information available.

I don't think the system is meant to "re-write", so much as allow it to be written in the first place. With the caveat, of course, that the DM hasn't written it already. It's designed to be an aide for non-scripted roleplaying.

 

[jaer]

In the situation you describe, the Streetwise check comes before you pick an alley, to decide which one to run down. If you get a success you pick the right one, if you fail you pick a less useful one. If you fail and easy check you pick the deadend, and if you succeed a hard check you pick the right one and know esactly where to run to get the best footing, or something. Once you are in the deadend alley you are already past streetwise checks and into athletics for climbing, or stealth to hide, or the like.

--Penn

In 4e guildlines perhaps, but not how I play. If the player makes his streetwise check before picking where is going, then yes, he knows the right alley to go down (and he can then decide to go down that alley or not...this streetwise check is for information only. Nothing else comes of it).

If he picks the alley first and then makes his check, then he is in that alley and realized he made a bad choice.

That might not be how 4e is set up, but that is how I feel comfortable playing.

 

[Nytmare]

I, as the DM, decided which alley has the way out, not which one the player runs down. Even the dice don't determine which alley the player runs down. Only the player makes that decision.

You're describing different situations which should be equally acceptable.

You're being chased by guards and are trying to escape from the city. > I attempt to lose the guards in a dead end alley that I know a special way out of.

or

(failed skill check) You make a wrong turn and find yourself in a dead end alley. > I try to find a way up and over a wall before the guards see me (with a -2 penalty cause I flubbed the first check)

or

I showed you a map and you foolishly chose to hide in a dead end alley with no way out now other than getting past the guards. > Dangit I guess I try to take them out as quickly as I can before they are able to raise an alarm.

Are all interesting conflicts and are different ways of handling the same set of circumstances.

 

[jaer]

I think you're overlooking a level of abstraction here. The player doesn't say "I run down Murderer's Alley to elude the guards! I roll a Streetwise check to find a way out!" to which the DM responds based on either of your posited models.

Instead, the player says "I want to try ducking down an alley and losing the guards, maybe by squeezing through a gap in a fence or diving down a sewer. My Streetwise result is 24."

To which the DM responds "Well, there's no such escape route down Murderer's Alley, so you don't want to go down there--but there is a sewer grate in the alley between the tinker's shop and the tailor's. You dash into the alley, wrench the grate free, and drop into the tunnel seconds before the guards catch up."

Again, it is a matter of order.

If the player says, "I want to find some side alley I can duck down and escape out of." I would have them make a streetwise check and tell them which alley that is. It might not be an alley they can get to on this turn...it's too far down the street.

If the player says "I duck down this alley and hide from the guard" then they indeed duck down Murderer's Alley cause that is what they said they were doing. It is the one they were next to, the one they ducked down to hide.

That to me is one of the big differences in my style to 4e style. My style doesn't assume any alleyway you see around you could be the one with the escape route in it. If Murderer's alley is the closest alley and it doesn't have an exit, then the player cannot escape through an alleyway that turn. A streetwise check, however, would reveal where they needed to go to escape through one next turn.

 

[Seule]

If he picks the alley first and then makes his check, then he is in that alley and realized he made a bad choice.

But then you are limiting character abilities by player skill. If the character has a killer streetwise he wouldn't run down that dead-end alley in the first place, even if the player doesn't think to invoke a check. This would be a circumstance where you as DM would hear what the player wants to do (run down an alley and escape) and mandate what skill is involved (streetwise to pick the correct alley) rather than letting the player pick the skill.
If you like doing it the other way, having player knowledge/skill determine what the character does even when the character should know better then you'll have to come up with other justifications than I will in order to use this system.

If you consider that the encounter isn't over until the characters have escaped the city, then space the checks further out. Have one check every 5 minutes or so. Or have one encounter being escaping the chase, and a second getting out of the city, somehow.

--Penn

 

[jaer]

You're describing different situations which should be equally acceptable.

They are equally acceptable. Please don't think I am bashing on 4e in all of this. I am mainly listing the ways in which 4e's potential use of skills differs from the way I play the game.

I am a strong supporter of 4e and I can fully see how this skill system would help a great many DMs and create less prep time. I just don't know that I would feel comfortable using it.

You're being chased by guards and are trying to escape from the city. > I attempt to lose the guards in a dead end alley that I know a special way out of.

or

(failed skill check) You make a wrong turn and find yourself in a dead end alley. > I try to find a way up and over a wall before the guards see me (with a -2 penalty cause I flubbed the first check)

or

I showed you a map and you foolishly chose to hide in a dead end alley with no way out now other than getting past the guards. > Dangit I guess I try to take them out as quickly as I can before they are able to raise an alarm.

Are all interesting conflicts and are different ways of handling the same set of circumstances.

Agreed. They are, and I have no problem with one DM picking one way over the other. I just know that I feel more comfortable in a defined environment where I know which alleys are where and which ones have escape routes. It helps me stay organized and consistent.

 

[LostSoul]

And this is where I don't like the 6 success FTW idea in this sort of situation. As I said before, I would run it so that the only way a player gets out of the city is if they get out of the city.

That's where our styles differ. I think what you are describing is not using this system; instead, you're using a system where the DM decides if the PCs get out or not, and the dice don't come into it. A player could roll a success on 20 checks, and end up in prison. Or the other way around - he could roll 20 failures, but still make it out.

Your way is probably better if you do take the time and care to build such an intricate chase scene! My only advice would be to make sure the players know how things work - that is, "The only way your PCs will get out of the city is if they get out of the city - successes on the dice may help, if you choose the right actions, but they won't resolve if you get out of the city or not."

Not my style, but if it works for you, go for it.

 

[Lackhand]

Again, it is a matter of order.

If the player says, "I want to find some side alley I can duck down and escape out of." I would have them make a streetwise check and tell them which alley that is. It might not be an alley they can get to on this turn...it's too far down the street.

If the player says "I duck down this alley and hide from the guard" then they indeed duck down Murderer's Alley cause that is what they said they were doing. It is the one they were next to, the one they ducked down to hide.

That to me is one of the big differences in my style to 4e style. My style doesn't assume any alleyway you see around you could be the one with the escape route in it. If Murderer's alley is the closest alley and it doesn't have an exit, then the player cannot escape through an alleyway that turn. A streetwise check, however, would reveal where they needed to go to escape through one next turn.

I suspect at this point we're agreeing vociferously and just prepending "No" to the beginning of our posts out of habit