Any One Want To Talk About Comicbooks?

[Rackhir]

Well, there is the aforementioned "ultimate" line of comics, which re-invents Marvel characters from square one. No backstory baggage there.

Be warned though, the "ultimate" version of the Avengers is called simply "The Ultimates" and I found it to be a very low payoff for two-bucks-and-change considering that the writer Marc Millar's big vision was "what if we formed a dream-team superhero group and then they had nobody to fight, except maybe each other?".

I've read a few issues of the Ultimates, since the Avengers were my favorite super team back in the day. However, the Ultimates strkes me more as a "Hey that Authority comic was sucessful. Let's do one just like it." that and trying to make all of the characters as unlikable as possible.

 

[Mallus]

However, the Ultimates strkes me more as a "Hey that Authority comic was sucessful. Let's do one just like it." that and trying to make all of the characters as unlikable as possible.

The Authority were unlikable?

 

[Rackhir]

The Authority were unlikable?

Well, they weren't exactly a bunch of care bears, but no. The unlikeable comment was about the Ultimates. Cap's a jingoistic "USA is always right" instead of personifying the Ideals of the US, Banner is a sniveling pathetic looser and the Hulk is a simply a murderous brute, who Banner deliberately looses because his *censored* isn't big enough for Betty etc... There's just a nasty and cruel edge to things in the Comic, especially in the interactions between the characters. The Authority had no qualms about being brutal if necessary or facing such an adversary, but weren't bullies about it.

 

[Felon]

The Authority were unlikable?

It can certainly be argued that the Authority's casual attitude towards massive body counts and brutally torturing their foes in for kicks is repulsive. The book is about nothing if not extremism, which tends to really polarize readers. I confess that I own the first four Authority trade paperbacks. I was as titillated as anyone by the way every issue had the feel of a $200 million-dollar Hollywood blockbuster, but eventually I grew tired of Warren Ellis, who openly professes that he hates superheroes, thinks their fans are retards, and spits on the evil United States government at every opportunity.

Well, they weren't exactly a bunch of care bears, but no. The unlikeable comment was about the Ultimates. Cap's a jingoistic "USA is always right" instead of personifying the Ideals of the US, Banner is a sniveling pathetic looser and the Hulk is a simply a murderous brute, who Banner deliberately looses because his *censored* isn't big enough for Betty etc... There's just a nasty and cruel edge to things in the Comic, especially in the interactions between the characters. The Authority had no qualms about being brutal if necessary or facing such an adversary, but weren't bullies about it.

You hit the nail on the head. Millar took a very mean-spirited approach to the characters. The ultimate line of comics is intended to be more mature and pull fewer punches than traditional Marvel comices, but he goes beyond what would make the Avengers refreshing and bold and turns into something ugly and garish. The Ultimate Hulk probably should actually kill people in the course of its destructive rampages, but having it actually eat people like an ogre is a turn-off. Portraying Ultimate Cap as less of a liberal, avuncular dudley-do-right and more of a kick-ass man of action would work, but making him into some kind of jack-booted thug is not in the spirit of the character at all. Let's not even get into Hank Pym's misogyny and the Wasp's insectoid menstrual cycle. Really, is there anyone in the team who isn't a pig?

And on top of that, nothing much happens in the book. Granted, I don't follow it anymore, but I gave it a couple of years. Do they even have any enemies yet?

Guess I must be out of touch though. Ellis and Millar's books sell well, after all.

 

[Welverin]

He does write Amazing Spiderman, Supreme Powers, and he will be writing Fantastic Four. I would say Straczynski is better know for his Joe Comics imprint through Top Cow/Image with his biggest/best creation called "Rising Stars" and is probably one of the best stories I have ever read… and I don’t mean in just comics.

I prefer Midnight Nation, it's a more compact story (and a complete), that turned out better. Though I believe part of my problem with Rising Stars is the long delay, which killed my interest, additionally the art has never appealed to me. Once the last issue comes out I'll have to read it from the beginning and see how it stands up in completed form.

 

[Mallus]

It can certainly be argued that the Authority's casual attitude towards massive body counts and brutally torturing their foes in for kicks is repulsive.

I recall that the truly repulsive behavior was relagated to the bad guys; like when the parody-Avengers tried to kill (kidnap?) Jenny Quantum, and the not-Iron Man blasts a maternity ward with his repulsor-rays while remarking 'I always wanted to try these out on live babies' (that was the start of Millar's run, post-Ellis, right).

I think mainstream comics are plenty violent, brutal, and casual about it. Books like the Authority just invert the normal sugarcoating into, um, an acidcoating, glorying in the superhuman violence and its lethal consequences. (But I can see how that can wear thin for a lot of readers).

I find the Authority's violence refreshingly honest. It gets to the heart of the revenge fantasy/power fantasy that underlies most comic stories. Plus, I like seeing things like a good flying man fly through a bad giant man's skull.

but eventually I grew tired of Warren Ellis, who openly professes that he hates superheroes

I don't believe that for a second...

thinks their fans are retards

He could think his fans were zombies or the Queen of England for all I care, just as long as he writes interesting comics.

and spits on the evil United States government at every opportunity.

I don't see that in his work (I get the sense he thinks all governments are tyrannies), but I'm probably closer to his political views than you...

 

[WayneLigon]

... Rising Stars ... Once the last issue comes out I'll have to read it from the beginning and see how it stands up in completed form.

As I understand, the 'long delay' was that something happened like what happened with Crusade: Top Cow poked JMS where he didn't wanna be poked so he suspended work on the series until the various business issues were resolved.

It's been out for a few weeks. An interesting ending, all told. A very positive one, which surprised me a little.

 

[Brother Shatterstone]

I prefer Midnight Nation, it's a more compact story (and a complete), that turned out better. Though I believe part of my problem with Rising Stars is the long delay, which killed my interest, additionally the art has never appealed to me.

Yeah midnight nation is good, and while I love the artwork in it I don't think the art was that big of an issue with Rising Star... I think that the fact that the artists used were never consistent was. (Of course all issues were minor compared to the delay in getting it done.)

Once the last issue comes out I'll have to read it from the beginning and see how it stands up in completed form.

Anyhow Rising Stars has been finished for a month or so... I think the ending lived up to the hype. Which to be honest was a shock but also wasn’t… Straczynski always knows how he will end the story… He doesn’t deviate from it either.

 

[Kage Tenjin]

I was as titillated as anyone by the way every issue had the feel of a $200 million-dollar Hollywood blockbuster, but eventually I grew tired of Warren Ellis, who openly professes that he hates superheroes, thinks their fans are retards, and spits on the evil United States government at every opportunity.

Didn't know that about Ellis, but I suppose it makes some sense. I really liked his Transmetropolitan series, and the potshot he takes at superman in there was very good.

You hit the nail on the head. Millar took a very mean-spirited approach to the characters. The ultimate line of comics is intended to be more mature and pull fewer punches than traditional Marvel comices, but he goes beyond what would make the Avengers refreshing and bold and turns into something ugly and garish. The Ultimate Hulk probably should actually kill people in the course of its destructive rampages, but having it actually eat people like an ogre is a turn-off. Portraying Ultimate Cap as less of a liberal, avuncular dudley-do-right and more of a kick-ass man of action would work, but making him into some kind of jack-booted thug is not in the spirit of the character at all. Let's not even get into Hank Pym's misogyny and the Wasp's insectoid menstrual cycle. Really, is there anyone in the team who isn't a pig?

Thor, though he's not really on the team. Iron Man seems to be a good enough character, but yeah, he's got an obvious flaw. Fury actually seems like a decent guy, as does Hawkeye. I guess Millar's fond of making it so that there are no perfect heros, and there are people who might want that.

And on top of that, nothing much happens in the book. Granted, I don't follow it anymore, but I gave it a couple of years. Do they even have any enemies yet?

Guess I must be out of touch though. Ellis and Millar's books sell well, after all.

The story kinda broke off there for a little while, but recently started up again. I agree with the problem of nothing much happening, but I think that's probably a flaw in the format, it's one of those books that tend to read better as graphic novels.

I suppose it's just a matter of taste. Some people want some more complexity in their stories.

My personal grab bag:
Ultimate Galactus
The Ultimates
The Witching
Fables (Trade only)
Lucifer (Trade only)

 

[Felon]

I recall that the truly repulsive behavior was relagated to the bad guys

Well, that is part of the trick. The Authority is a tight-knit family of cold-blooded, homocidal idealists, and the people they fight are just that much worse. If you buy into moral relativism, the Authority are a great bunch of guys.

But, when Midnighter strips down a renegade doctor, hangs him up, pulverizes him, applies electrical shocks, etc, the fact that he enjoys it makes him a bit of a pig, and that's not mitigated a great deal by the evilness of his victim.

I don't believe that for a second...

Well, stop the presses: someone on the Internet has dismissed another person's remarks out-of-hand. He's got interviews posted on the web. He has a website, go read a few of his rants. He wears his disdain for the superhero genre on his sleeve and openly tells interviewers that he plans to get as far away from them as he can while still making a comfortable living.

He could think his fans were zombies or the Queen of England for all I care, just as long as he writes interesting comics.

I certainly will agree that it is important to be able to separate the author from the work, which is why I still enjoy a lot of Byrne's stories and artwork. Many highly creative and talented people were horrible human beings.

I don't see that in his work (I get the sense he thinks all governments are tyrannies), but I'm probably closer to his political views than you...

Hmm. You've got serious blinders on if you don't think Ellis has a special place in his heart for the United States Government. He didn't kick down the president of France's door and toss him to his likely demise through a portal to Iraq. He didn't have Tony Blair kill off former members of Stormwatch for no particular reason.