Any Supers Game that feels Super?

[Wofano Wotanto]

@Wofano Wotanto You mentioned Sentinel Comics upthread, would you share your experiences?

I haven't played either WiP or GiP, but Sentinels I can help with.

In terms of what makes it feel super (or at least like a capes comic) for me the key element is the pacing mechanic in action scenes, which uses the "GYRO system" to reflect mounting urgency. The scene starts out in the Green zone, goes to Yellow over time, and finally to Red, advancing one tick per round and occasionally being accelerated or otherwise altered by environmental effects or character actions. A "normal" scene has eight rounds, two Green, four Yellow, and two Red, but it's really up to the GM how to lay out a tracker and there are samples of shorter and longer ones with different "color" ratios. Individual characters also have a GYRO status but change personal zones based on their current Health (essentially hit points, and equally nebulous as to what it really represents).

While PCs can take basic actions in any zone, everyone has access to ~8-10 Abilities (essentially practiced moves that either do more or different things than a basic action can, often combining two or even three basic effects into one turn's action) that are split into color zones, with Green abilities being the least powerful and Red being the strongest. To determine what abilities are available for use, you take the "Reddest" zone that either the scene tracker or your personal zone is in, so if get thumped on badly you could conceivably be using Yellow or Red abilities in turn one (because you're that desperate) or toward the end of the scene a perfectly Healthy hero could be using Red abilities because the situation has escalated that much. Having the scene tracker run completely out is generally a villain "win" that at least lets them get away cleanly, and might be much worse. The GM defines the consequences of a villain win, as well as the hero "victory conditions" - which often includes defeating all the opposition but can be much more varied and interesting than that, eg disarming the Doomsday Device, evacuating the VIP assassination target, etc.

The end result of all that is a system than does a good job of naturally ramping up the action both over time and in response to how much the PCs are getting mauled, so you see the kind of heroic effort under pressure that defines comic book supers - to me, anyway. It's quite similar to 13th Age's excellent escalation die mechanic, but more deeply integrated into the overall game mechanics.

If you want more wall of text musings about the game, there's a fair bit on my blog. The most useful (for what you're asking about) is probably found under Maunderings here, with the unfinished Gameplay Overview articles here and here maybe being the most relevant. Really need to get part three of that series done. There's also a two-part series on the practical aspects of designing an action scene using an example from one of my campaigns, the first part of which is here and the crunchier second half here. Finally, there's a page listing other online Sentinels stuff over here. I would particularly recommend a look at the two play-by-post games (Crackerjacks and Pivotal Point Guard) linked there if you want to read some actual play in progress, although you obviously wouldn't want to comment or ask questions on thread for those - that's what PMs are for.

Man, I boost for this game a lot.

 

[Starfox]

I haven't played either WiP or GiP, but Sentinels I can help with.

In terms of what makes it feel super (or at least like a capes comic) for me the key element is the pacing mechanic in action scenes, which uses the "GYRO system" to reflect mounting urgency. The scene starts out in the Green zone, goes to Yellow over time, and finally to Red, advancing one tick per round and occasionally being accelerated or otherwise altered by environmental effects or character actions. A "normal" scene has eight rounds, two Green, four Yellow, and two Red, but it's really up to the GM how to lay out a tracker and there are samples of shorter and longer ones with different "color" ratios. Individual characters also have a GYRO status but change personal zones based on their current Health (essentially hit points, and equally nebulous as to what it really represents).

While PCs can take basic actions in any zone, everyone has access to ~8-10 Abilities (essentially practiced moves that either do more or different things than a basic action can, often combining two or even three basic effects into one turn's action) that are split into color zones, with Green abilities being the least powerful and Red being the strongest. To determine what abilities are available for use, you take the "Reddest" zone that either the scene tracker or your personal zone is in, so if get thumped on badly you could conceivably be using Yellow or Red abilities in turn one (because you're that desperate) or toward the end of the scene a perfectly Healthy hero could be using Red abilities because the situation has escalated that much. Having the scene tracker run completely out is generally a villain "win" that at least lets them get away cleanly, and might be much worse. The GM defines the consequences of a villain win, as well as the hero "victory conditions" - which often includes defeating all the opposition but can be much more varied and interesting than that, eg disarming the Doomsday Device, evacuating the VIP assassination target, etc.

The end result of all that is a system than does a good job of naturally ramping up the action both over time and in response to how much the PCs are getting mauled, so you see the kind of heroic effort under pressure that defines comic book supers - to me, anyway. It's quite similar to 13th Age's excellent escalation die mechanic, but more deeply integrated into the overall game mechanics.

If you want more wall of text musings about the game, there's a fair bit on my blog. The most useful (for what you're asking about) is probably found under Maunderings here, with the unfinished Gameplay Overview articles here and here maybe being the most relevant. Really need to get part three of that series done. There's also a two-part series on the practical aspects of designing an action scene using an example from one of my campaigns, the first part of which is here and the crunchier second half here. Finally, there's a page listing other online Sentinels stuff over here. I would particularly recommend a look at the two play-by-post games (Crackerjacks and Pivotal Point Guard) linked there if you want to read some actual play in progress, although you obviously wouldn't want to comment or ask questions on thread for those - that's what PMs are for.

Man, I boost for this game a lot.

Rounds must be fast if a scene can be up to 8 rounds long. Or do most actions end sooner?

 

[Wofano Wotanto]

Rounds must be fast if a scene can be up to 8 rounds long. Or do most actions end sooner?

It's pretty variable depending on the number of PCs, how well the players know their characters, and the types of scene elements in use (oh hey, I have a blog article on that subject too) but IME a scene with 4-6 players will usually last between an hour or two and rarely end with a tracker timing out rather than the heroes managing to pull off a win of some kind or a TPKO (Total Party Knock-Out, that is - death is pretty much optional on the game, which is another factor that makes it feel like a comic book to me). I'd say five-six rounds on a normal eight-round tracker is about average, but like I said, it's wildly variable.

I think I'm also somewhat more prone to have my villains make Overcomes to escape the scene when things go south for them than most GMs (at least the ones I've had - I play about as much as I run), which shortens my scenes. Also fond of using villain actions for things other than just their abilities, which can speed things up - and predictably, I have a blog article about that subject too.

Doesn't hurt that the core die mechanic is pretty simple. You declare what you're trying to do (often using a character sheet action ability, but sometimes a basic action which you might beef up by making it "risky" and taking a twist in exchange), build a pool of three dice (a power, a quality, and your status), one or two of which are predefined, and declare if you're using any available bonuses. Then you roll, see which are your highest, middle, and lowest results, apply any mods (bonuses or penalties) and determine effects, with the middle die (before mods) being the default. Once you're used to it the process takes maybe a minute tops, less when there are no bonuses to think about.

And that's PCs and major villains. Minions and lieutenants (tough minions, effectively) roll a single status die, which is also their current "Health" of sorts, so even easier.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Mutants and Masterminds is cool, but it is clearly a d20-based product, not a Fate-inspired one. This is backed up by the publishing dates:

DC Heroes was first published in 1985
Mutants and Masterminds was first published in 2002
Fate was first published in 2003.

Since M&M came first, it is unlikely to be particularly inspired by or have much in common with Fate.

Wrong Kenson game. They were talking about Icons, not M&M, and Icons does, indeed, seem to have some Fate influence.

 

[Lord_Blacksteel]

Mutants and Masterminds is cool, but it is clearly a d20-based product, not a Fate-inspired one. This is backed up by the publishing dates:

DC Heroes was first published in 1985
Mutants and Masterminds was first published in 2002
Fate was first published in 2003.

Since M&M came first, it is unlikely to be particularly inspired by or have much in common with Fate.

Much of FATE originated with FUDGE which was published in 1992

M&M 2nd edition was published in 2005 and is significantly different from 1st edition which had many more d20 holdovers.

MM&M 3rd edition was published in 2009 and has even more changes. So no, M&M is not "FATE-inspired" but it has added some elements that people describe now as FATE-like regardless of the system they originated with.

As someone else has pointed out ICONS was the game being mentioned. It was first published in 2010 and the designer specifically calls out FATE and MSH as inspirations.

For the OP if you want a good rules-light superhero game with strong support ICONS is a great place to start - it's pretty much the opposite end of the mechanical spectrum from M&M & Champions while not being as narrative-driven as MHR/Cortex. There are rules for both pint-buy and randomly generated characters and the rules are pretty tweakable. Plus the rules are a $15 PDF on DTRPG so trying them out is not a huge investment.

 

[Wofano Wotanto]

I don't know, I'd put Tiny d6 Supers near the far end of crunch spectrum from Champions myself, and there are a few super-stripped down DTRPG offerings that are even lighter. Icons has a fair bit more meat on it (which isn't a bad thing), sitting somewhere close to Prowlers & Paragons or Vigilante City on my spectrum. Certainly does have a ton of support though, and as you said the pdf is a very low risk investment.

Weird that the cheapest print version is ten bucks more than the low-end Prowlers & Paragons book. It's a 6x9 format so smaller than P&P's 8.5x11, but at nearly double the page count I guess it adds up.

Really not a lot of supers RPGs I'd actively advise against giving a shot. It's a really diverse genre, everyone's got different itches they want scratched and what's ideal for one set of needs can be terrible for others.

 

[Helena Real]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, but my whole-hearted recommendation goes to Masks: A New Generation. Masks is my favorite supers RPG, basically because it centers on the drama of being a superhero (young one) instead of modeling specific power sets with points or something like that. What's best is that the archetypes cover a wide array of options and makes it so everybody can have the same influence over the narrative, so Robin and Superboy and Miss Martian can be equally important and relevant to the story regardless of whether their power sets are equivalent or not.

The book is very well-written and it has all the advice you may possible need.

 

[Umbran]

I haven't played either WiP or GiP, but Sentinels I can help with.

In terms of what makes it feel super (or at least like a capes comic) for me the key element is the pacing mechanic in action scenes, which uses the "GYRO system" to reflect mounting urgency.

I will second Wofano here - the GYRO mechanic does help the system model the rising tension of typical superhero scenes.

I can add a few things that helps it be "super" to me:

1) Not everyone has the same stats. This is not a game where everyone has a stat for Strength, Intelligence, Endurance, or whatever. It is a game where what defines you as a superhero directs what you'll do.

When you try to do something, you build a dice pool out of a relevant Power your hero has, a Quality they have, and their current Status. If fisticuffs break out, a standard bruiser might have a Power of Strength, a Quality of Close Combat, and we'd narrate that a a big, well-placed punch. A speedster may not have those - instead they might have a Power of Speed, and a Quality of Finesse, and we'd narrate that as a flurry of blows too fast to see.

2) Weirdly the relative nature of scaling in the game helps make it super.

In most more traditional games, somewhere they tell you things in real world terms - a Strength of X means you can lift Y tons. A SuperSpeed of N means you can move M miles/hr, and so on. SCRPG doesn't generally do this.

Everything is rated in terms of dice, not in terms of a real-world reference. I roll my dice, and if I roll high enough, I succeed. Exactly what that means in the narrative, however, is open. Whether the results are "street level" or "Superman level" is not in the definition of the power, but in how I describe the result.

 

[Umbran]

Wrong Kenson game. They were talking about Icons, not M&M, and Icons does, indeed, seem to have some Fate influence.

So, with respect, I was responding to a post that specifically referenced M&M, so, no, not wrong system. Thanks.

 

[Umbran]

As someone else has pointed out ICONS was the game being mentioned. It was first published in 2010 and the designer specifically calls out FATE and MSH as inspirations.

Well, I was initially referring to Fate Accelerated, which has some notable differences from Fate Core, and what I found interesting about it was specifically in some of those different elements.

Fate Accelerated doesn't have Fate's stats and skills. It simply has "Approaches" - I realized you can do a fast swap of those approaches for FASERIP stats.