Any ToB inspiration in Ultimate Combat?

[Aus_Snow]

I found *some* Bo9S stuff was OK, in my e6 variant games. Much of it (other than that which was out of bounds anyway, due to level restrictions) wasn't available. Also, I added in some custom bits and bobs, some of my own making, others from people on these forums.

There's some real potential there; it just might need some tailoring, for any given campaign setting.

But then, I believe that is generally the case, with RPG rules.

 

[Dragonblade]

I always found the complaints about ToB to be somewhat odd (towards over-powering) - 'course, the last group I played in had a core dwarf barbarian that would never roll less than a 10 each level for HP & a con of 20 at first. Players with ToB stuff still had trouble keeping up.

If anything, Pathfinder Core brought the core stuff up to ToB's level. Other than some skill adjustments and the swordsage's HP, it can be used straight.

Indeed. We played with Spell Compendium and ToB in our final 3.5 days and we loved them. In fact, without ToB we would have dropped 3.5 long before there was any talk of 4e or Pathfinder.

But of course we liked to play D&D with the volume up to 11. My impression of Pathfinder is it does just that and ToB should be usable straight across in PF games without any balance issues. The problem is its out of print and not OGL, so I was hoping Paizo would take some of the concepts and ideas it presented and re-imagined them Paizo style and made them available as an option for Pathfinder players.

I can certainly understand some DMs not liking the wuxia/anime power aspect of ToB because they don't feel it fits their notion of medieval fantasy from a flavor standpoint. That is a fair opinion that I totally respect. I certainly can sympathize with these folks not wanting ToB style maneuvers as a core part of the game. But some gamers such as myself, like that over the top action anime style. So whats the harm in having such things in an optional sourcebook? None really.

I'm not directing this at any particular poster, or even group of fans, but it just seems in recent years when I read EN World or go to RPG.net, there is so much more intolerance in gaming. If a company publishes a supplement that someone doesn't like (for any game system), its suddenly treated like a personal betrayal by certain posters. Like the entire line has become irrevocably tainted because someone might want to use a book in their game that they don't like. This attitude really saddens me.

 

[Glade Riven]

Eh, people are just vocal about what they don't like and sort of "take ownership" of what they do like. It doesn't help that we live in interesting times, which adds stress and puts people on edge.

Now, if I (as a DM) don't think that a warblade should be able to punch through a wall, he's not going to be able to punch through a wall. Or if he does, he'll put a hole the size of his fist. It'll take him a while to make it big enough for someone to go through.

Rule Zero is fun

 

[Henry]

A spell or two, and a feat or two from the Spell Compendium might be considered allowable in a game, but most of the Spell Compendium is broken, broken, broken. It was a like a 'team' of developers were working on the book, but nobody talked to each other, they just independantly worked on their list of spells and feats, then some editor haphazardly tied it together as one book.

I have to agree with Spell Compendium. Our games went the most astray when we allowed the Spell Compendium in our games. However, funny enough straight-up Book of Nine Swords characters didn't overpower the game in the least on the martial side -- it was a combination of the Race Splatbooks (Races of the Wild, etc.) with the Complete splatbooks (Complete Divine, Complete Warrior) Complete Arcane, etc.) that created templated monstrosities leaping 60 feet across the battlefield and multiattacking for 400 to 500 points of damage in one round at 15th to 20th levels... YEESH! The Spell Compendium, however, allowed things like the various spell matrix / spell engine spells, the multi-energy resistances, the cometfall/avalanche spells, etc. -- funny enough, most of these coming from the Complete Splatbooks.

 

[pawsplay]

I always found the complaints about ToB to be somewhat odd (towards over-powering) - 'course, the last group I played in had a core dwarf barbarian that would never roll less than a 10 each level for HP & a con of 20 at first. Players with ToB stuff still had trouble keeping up.

If anything, Pathfinder Core brought the core stuff up to ToB's level. Other than some skill adjustments and the swordsage's HP, it can be used straight.

Oh, I don't think the ToB is unbalanced, especially. The crew on the Optimization Board at wizards.com came up with some interesting tests, and the Warblade barely edged out the Fighter, who outperformed the Barbarian, in most likely scenarios, assuming standard equipment. The "balance" issue is that the Warblade has better skill access, while being equivalent or slightly superior to a fighter in melee.

I object purely to the idea of a fighter cleaving an adamantine wall in one hit, as a storytelling element. It's like a wizard winning an arm-wrestling match with an ogre without using a spell. It's not any more ridiculous in scale than a lot of other elements, but the imagery and rationale don't fit in many settings.

In Forgotten Realms, obscene power is what magic does, while in Krynn, it's divine intervention. Dark Sun doesn't have much in the way of PC superheroics. Eberron assumes a fairly down-to-earth power scale for ordinary mortal creatures.

Now, d20 Exalted... there, fighers cleaving indestructible walls in half with bo sticks and wizards armwrestling 10' ogres are just par for the course.

 

[gamerprinter]

I'm thinking of porting over some Bo9S maneuvers as ki powers, so some of the exotic flavor of Bo9S could port into my Kaidan: a Japanese Ghost Story setting, under development at Rite Publishing. Now I don't want to bring the whole thing in, just some elements.

In my setting I have at least two Ki based classes: the samurai and the monk, several prestige classes, so far including the ninja are also ki based classes.

Looking at the Bo9S Crusader, I'm not too keen on Steely Resolve, but I do like Furious Counterstrike, and thinking of making Counterstrike a samurai ki power, also Smite (cut and paste from Bo9S) as another.

I have Ki Armor for ninja that should be available to the Samurai, which grants a AC bonus based on WIS bonus that lasts for a number of rounds equal to WIS score.

Also Puissant Strike which grants WIS bonus to attack and damage.

Battle Clarity, Battle Cunning and Battle Skill from the Bo9S looks like they too could be ported over as ki powers, then I'll look to the Bo9S tactical feats to see what else could be ported over.

Other than that, that's all I'd bring into PF.

Edit: the tactical feats are too complicated, so I won't include them. Of the regular feats I only like Evasive Reflexes (grant an immediate 5' step, when given an AoO), and Snap Kick - a bonus unarmed attack at -2 Hit. Now I'll look through the maneuvers to see if anything can be converted into a feat or ki power.

GP

 

[AllisterH]

The reason for the love of the ToB classes on the old char-op boards was

a) they were really hard to make poorly...You could literally pick your powers using a blindfold and assuming that the powers were ok by the rules (following the requirements of knowing appropriate lower level powers etc), you were NOT that much more ineffective than someone who deliberately picked powers.

b) They kind of topped out...the nature of the encounter system meant that it was pretty damn hard to abuse the heck out of a power and thus the hardcore optimizer would hit a threshold that wasn't THAT much higher than a guy wh picked powers because they were "cool"

Conversely, the barbarian and the fighter had very huge swings in effectiveness..As Henry mentioned, once you started combining feats from various sources (feats which never were intended to work together), that's when you started seeing obscene levels of damage (The King of smack from the char op board was NEVER a ToB character but a barbarian).

Indeed, the most powerful/broken aspect of ToB was never the powers but the TACTICAL feats.

The melee 3.x characters also dealt with the fact that if you just picked random feats or what you thought were cool could easily result in a character that couldn't pull their own weight.

(Contray to belief that the char-op only loved broken things..it was the fact that ToB classes were not broken yet effective that garnered the love)