Anyone else having trouble rationalizing CoC sanity loss?

[Atticus_of_Amber]

Post Traumatic Stress

Just an idea off the top of my head...

In Martin Seligman's book What You Can Change and What You Can't he presents a chillingingly persuasuve case for whay post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD), as opposed to depression and anxiety, can't be cured.

His argument seems to be that many of us know or suspect, in a rational, intellectual sense, that life is precarious, that all that we love and care about, all that gives our lives meaning and makes life worth living, could be snuffed out at any instant. Moreover, those of us who are agnostic or athiest (or those who doubt their faith) know, at a rational level, that without thesethings our lives can become meaningless.

However, people with PTSD don't just know this, they feel it, every moment. Some horrible event irrefutably proved to them the futility of caring about anything. Perhaps one minute they were kissing the love of their life and the next all they held in their arms was a corpse; perhaps they saw their child die in front of them; perhpas they watched a civilised town, full of people they had known and liked all their lives, transform in a matter of days into a slaughter house of "ethnic cleansing".

Seligmans' theory is seems to be that people with PTSD are incurable because they have "seen the Truth". Stripped of the ordinary, everyday illusions of security, they simply can't lead normal lives.

I see Cthulu sanity loss as like that. Imagine you discovered that not only were you an alien accident with respect to the universe; but that YOU were wrong and the Mythos creatures were the ones with a right to exist?

Like PTSD, recovery would only come with fooling yourself that your revelations were wrong...

 

[ColonelHardisson]

Tangent: A little too much Hollywood, not enough Christianity. The notion of a name of God which could destroy creation dates from a movie in the eighties, and has no basis in Chirstian belief or mythology.

It's a nit pick, I know, but I'm a stickler.

I wanted to go back to this because I wanted to make my point a bit clearer. When it comes to occult lore, there have been a lot of different, and often conflicting, theories about what is or isn't correct, which is to be expected. The bit about the tetragrammaton either being, or echoing, the secret name of God, and what effects that name has if spoken, certainly predate the 1980s (and I don't know which movie you're referring to - the only one I can think of would be Pi (and yeah, I know the title is actually the symbol for pi, before someone jumps on me about it!), but it is from only a couple years ago). The notion of the tetragrammaton also being a "code" that, if broken, can be used to gain occult power is also centuries old.

Now, I'm not trying to be offensive to anyone regarding their belief system. If you don't believe that a given religion has a connection to any of this in even a tangential way, I respect that. I'm simply relating what I've read about this specific subject. With occult lore, there are always, as I've said, contradictions and shaky connections, just by virtue of the subject.

 

[Aaron L]

Becoming detached and not being bothered by horrible things is the result of losing Sanity. If you're no longer bothered by the great slimy tentacled thing because you've seen it so many times, it's because you've gone insane

 

[NoOneofConsequence]

I wanted to go back to this because I wanted to make my point a bit clearer. When it comes to occult lore, there have been a lot of different, and often conflicting, theories about what is or isn't correct, which is to be expected. The bit about the tetragrammaton either being, or echoing, the secret name of God, and what effects that name has if spoken, certainly predate the 1980s (and I don't know which movie you're referring to - the only one I can think of would be Pi (and yeah, I know the title is actually the symbol for pi, before someone jumps on me about it!), but it is from only a couple years ago). The notion of the tetragrammaton also being a "code" that, if broken, can be used to gain occult power is also centuries old.

Now, I'm not trying to be offensive to anyone regarding their belief system. If you don't believe that a given religion has a connection to any of this in even a tangential way, I respect that. I'm simply relating what I've read about this specific subject. With occult lore, there are always, as I've said, contradictions and shaky connections, just by virtue of the subject.

The movie was called Warlock on international release. I'm not sure if that's the name it goes by in the US. As far as the tetragrammaton - I must admit that I know of no references re-dating the 1890's, but I'll believe you. However, this still doesn't make it Christian belief - as you yourself say, it's occult lore.

The occult is a competing discourse to Christianity. I should have made myself more clear initially - the notion may predate the eighties but it is most certainly not Christian.

 

[Tsyr]

I agree with CH... I think your looking at it wrong, in a way.

Cthullian stuff is _NOT_ the most horrible thing you can imagine. It is _NOT_ your worst nightmare. It does _NOT_ change your pre-defined concepts of reality.

Cthulluian stuff is he most horrible stuff you could NEVER imagine.

It is worse than the worst nightmare of any man.

It doesn't just break pre-defined concepts of reality, it shatters them and leaves you a broken shell because it doesn't provide any NEW theory to live by.

Cthullian stuff, by it's VERY NATURE, is alien to a human mind. Ever read a good description of the architechure of R'lyeh? There are things there that cannot exist in reality... corners that are both more than and less than 45 degrees _AT THE SAME TIME_. Rooms that are the size of a football stadium inside, the size of a phone booth on the outside. Things like that. The human mind is simply too set in its ways, and too primative, to be able to concieve of things like that without damage.

Or from some of the other stories... what would it do to your sanity to find a book you wrote -and remembered having wrote- buried in ruins that predate even our earliest speculations of pre-history? In a language that you can't read, but remember having been able to? And then being able to find other things in the ruins that you remembered seeing at eye level... towering over your head?

Like CH said... unless you can except the very premise of many of HPLs works... that there are things man just should not know, that man CANNOT know... then none of it is important.

 

[Henry]

For Tiefling and SurgicalSteel - In addition to the wonderful stuff that Col Hardisson and Tsyr and others have posted, there is one more way to think about it -

Has your bed ever come to life and tried to eat you - WITHOUT the benefit of hallucinogenic drugs?

What WOULD you do if you discovered that all your closest friends were truly aliens who planned to snuff you out?

More to the point, I would urge you to talk to anyone you know really well who is an EMT, and ask them about the worst experience they ever had, that they are willing to share. I guarantee that there are some even non-paranormal experiences that can test our sanity, even on a day to day basis.

 

[Saeviomagy]

The problem with the CoC game is that they use sanity too much, and you just keep losing it from seeing the same things over and over again. And the rules are not consistant.

The following applies to the non-d20 CoC:
- It is not possible to go temporarily insane from being surprised at seeing a horribly mutilated body, but it is possible to go indefinately insane.

- Being surprised at seing bodies has the same level of sanity loss as seeing many of the totally unnatural things listed in the same section, such as various impossible creatures etc.

- Losing sanity points has no effect on your interaction with others, or any other aspect of your performance whatsoever until you hit zero. The only way that losing points affects you is if you go insane from speedy losses of sanity


Take a look at unknown armies - it's a far better system. I'll sum up:

You have 4 (someone correct me if I'm wrong) categories of sanity - isolation, self, violence and mystical.

Each of these has 10 failed slots and 5 hardened slots.

When something mind-breaking happens, it will be listed with a number which represents the severity of the shock and a description of the type of shock (violence 4, mystical 2 etc). If the number exceeds your hardened slots, you make a willpower roll. A success earns you a hardened slot, failure gets you a (surprise!) failed slot.

Each level of failed/hardened has a description. 5 hardened slots on self means that you are very detached, and feel like you are simply an observer in your own body, resigned to having no control over your fate. 10 failed slots would mean that you're worried you'll betray yourself, friends and family at any turn, and that there are aliens out there with mind control rays and you need to wear a tinfoil hat to keep them out.

Note that it is possible to have failed and hardened slots in each category - so you can be totally afraid and scared of strange monsters and magic, while at the same time unfazed by the fact that it exists. Or flip out at the sight of your own blood while being capable of gunning down unarmed civilians without a second thought.

 

[Tsyr]

I agree with UA doing the sanity system alot better.

If I were to import it to a CoC game, though, I would probably rule that things directly tied to the Mythos cannot be hardened against... IE, they would all be a rank-6 or better shock... you might get a bit used to seeing them, but they are STILL shocking, even after all that.

 

[Zakath]

So basically thats why people say, in real life terms, that Geniuses are so quirky? because they have exposed themselves or have been exposed to things that arent ingrained in the mind of the average person...*Shrugs*

Mabe thats why my whole generation is turning pyscho...because of these Geniuses who unleashed the heavy Knowledge of Quantum Phyics and Biological Chemistry...

Well honestly, speaking as a gamer, if i having the current knowledge and ideas i have right now...were to see real life magic and demons and monsters.....

I think i would still have a time comming to grips with the fact of magic...even though i do believe at one point people could manipulate the forces around them...but mostly i would be intrigued and wanna try to learn how to do it...
ofcourse if i seen some demons..yeah i might go alittle INSANE....prolly wig out for alittle while...but i dont think id like freak out forever over it...i think after i seen it accouple times (if i lived!) then it would just be like watching a violent movie or playing a slaughter type video game....you just become psuedo-numb to it...or atleast my fear wouldnt be too great unless it just wiped the floor with me and i somehow lived...but im a vengful person so eventually id catch back up with it or die trying....

someone mentioned about gnomes...you know i dont think that would freak me out....i would be shocked to see one alive....but i wouldnt run around the room screaming and flailing my arms like a mad man...nor would i end up a parinoid skitzo or a something really messed up in the head
ofcourse ive never encountered anything like this so i cant TRUELY say what would happen..
but thats just me...i like to explore, im curious, i have a hunger for knowledge, im intellegent, i can be vengful...
mabe im not completely sane..*shrugs*

ive never known true undying fear....never...ive been afraid but i was always taught when theres a knocking on your door you open it without hesistation and give whatever is standing there a big fat kiss....whether its life, death, or fear of whatever.....
You only get one chance to live (unless your buddist or hindu then you get many)....So either take action or quiver in fear....whichever you enjoy the most...
so if life turns out its not what you were told and its not what it seems....you got 2 choices...either see how far the rabbit hole really goes....or take that little blue pill.....

But thats just me and thats just what i think....everyones different...and i think that if my parents were to actually see something like a gnome or goblin or someone useing real magic...i think they would flip out and be freaked out....but i dont think they would turn into gibbering idiots walking in circles and smearing their feces on the walls....

I like the idea of sanity system...i havent bought the CoC book yet...but i think for every person it should work on different degrees...you know what i mean? cause EVERYONES different...but thats just from a real life point of view....in game terms i guess its easy to say ok everyone goes crazy cause thats just the way it is...

Or is there feats or something that make you less suseptible to lossing sanity? Or immune to lossing sanity?
Why couldnt someone be perfectly sane and have knowledge of things that arent "normal" to the mind?
Ive dealt with stress so i know that causes your mind to alter....but what doesnt kill you only makes you stronger...
alot of people crack under stress or pressure...but isnt there those who do better under stress or pressure?

A 45 degree angle thats not a 45 degree angle....i cant really imagine what that looks like...i can try to speculate...but what i say is SHOW ME! let me see what it looks like and i wanna see how it works...

anyways just dropping some thoughts.....untill any of us actually expierence any of things in the CoC book....we'll never truely know...but id give both my eyes to see them! hehehe

 

[reiella]

If you've rationalized it, you've missed the point of the game/mechanic/story plot device.