Anyone else think dragons are too powerful?

[moritheil]

it started to feel like postmodernism gone wrong...

If there is a wrong and a right, is it truly postmodern?

I do know I wouldn't want to run a game with a Ancient Wyrn Red Dragon: far too much book keeping, plus, as they're written they are virtually unkillable.

I think you'll find that at ECL, they are far from unkillable.

 

[Banshee16]

Isn't the commonality of a creature in the game completely dependent upon the DM? I'm not seeing anything in the MM which says "If your PCs don't stumble onto a dragon all the time we will send the gaming police to your house and break your kneecaps."

My players never encountered a single dragon through the life of 3E..maybe one....but that was a PC who got Polymorph Other'ed into a blue dragon, and dominated into attacking them.

It's all in how common the DM wants them to be.

Banshee

 

[jdrakeh]

Thinking back, in roughly 15 years of gaming, I've seen exactly two dragons in actual play (one of those was a PC in Palladium Fantasy, the other a purely bestial dragon based on the Dragon entry for the Corspe Tearer Linnorm in AD&D 2e). I'm not sure that I missed anything,

 

[Haffrung Helleyes]

My only gripe with 3E dragons is that I think their fly speeds are a bit too fast.

Ken

 

[DrunkonDuty]

I think you'll find that at ECL, they are far from unkillable.

Well, yeah. But that ECL is 26!!!!!!!

Recently, just as a one off, a mate of mine ran a fight vs. an Ancient Wyrm Red. (He wanted to use his mini. )

I wasn't able to play but a bunch of folks (7 IIRC) drew up 20th level PCs. They were allowed to use anything from any book. ANy prestige class, any spell, any feat, any combo. Of course, so was the Dragon. Fight lasted 5 rds, dragon took 50hp (ish) damage. PCs wiped out. 3 of them never even took a shot.

 

[moritheil]

Well, yeah. But that ECL is 26!!!!!!!

Recently, just as a one off, a mate of mine ran a fight vs. an Ancient Wyrm Red. (He wanted to use his mini. )

I wasn't able to play but a bunch of folks (7 IIRC) drew up 20th level PCs. They were allowed to use anything from any book. ANy prestige class, any spell, any feat, any combo. Of course, so was the Dragon. Fight lasted 5 rds, dragon took 50hp (ish) damage. PCs wiped out. 3 of them never even took a shot.

Yes, that's the point. If you want to play a dragon, be prepared to give up a lot of levels.

Eight level 20 PCs are maybe good for a CR 22-24 encounter. A CR 26 dragon has a significant edge on them, by the CR system.

IMO if your PCs were going for hit point damage, they were probably doing things wrong.

EDIT: Actually the dragon is CR 26, not ECL 26; it has no listed ECL. Going by the existing pattern its LA would be +15 on top of its 40 HD, so it's ECL 55 or so.

 

[DrunkonDuty]

Thanks Moritheil, I've learnt something new: I didn't know there was a difference between ECL and CR. So allow me to correct my previous post: ECL 55!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Truly it deserves more exclamation marks.

Back on topic:
Thanks to this thread I stand convinced that the next dragons to pop up in my campaign (and there's actually 2 slated to appear) will be much more the enormous, fire belching brute types. I was going to go in this direction anyway cos of the power level and limited magic items in my game but now I'll take it even further. It'll be funny to see the look on my players' faces when they realise the Dragon they're fighting is not as powerful as they expected.

cheers

 

[prospero63]

I've just never seen a dragon that didn't require a high-level party to fight it. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

Spoilers below...

The group I'm running in RttToEE did a pretty nice job of handling the green dragon in the mines, and they were an average party level of a little over 7. While they did not kill it, they managed to fight it to a draw on two separate occasions with no loss of party members.

So I'd have to disagree with your assessment at least using that example (though I can think of dozens of others).

I wonder if you aren't confusing great wyrm challenges for "all dragons". Yeah, great wyrms require a high level party... they are friggin great wyrms...

 

[Thurbane]

Dragons seem to have gotten signifcantly more powerful in relation to PCs with each edition (1E, 2E, 3E). I started on AD&D 1E, and a dragon was always a tough fight. But these days, any dragon larger than an alsation is likely to decimate most "correct CR level" parties. That's been my experience, anyway.

Oh for the days of three breath weapons a day!

 

[moritheil]

Dragons seem to have gotten signifcantly more powerful in relation to PCs with each edition (1E, 2E, 3E). I started on AD&D 1E, and a dragon was always a tough fight. But these days, any dragon larger than an alsation is likely to decimate most "correct CR level" parties. That's been my experience, anyway.

Oh for the days of three breath weapons a day!

I don't know . . . against the players I tend to interact with, dragons are sandbagged with a lot of useless features: AC that doesn't stop attacks, spells that get dispelled, and SR that isn't even a credible speedbump. But I play with optimizers.

Thanks Moritheil, I've learnt something new: I didn't know there was a difference between ECL and CR. So allow me to correct my previous post: ECL 55!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Truly it deserves more exclamation marks.

My pleasure.