Anyone else tired of game mechanic freebies?

[Scribble]

I think that they're counterbalanced by things like:

Add on powers/abilities designed for monsters (like in Demonomicon or Dark Sun creature catalog.)

PCs being able to recreate most of the effects though things like interactive terrain, traps, items, stunts etc...

Which is why I say 4e has some "wiggle room" in the balance.

As long as they keep to a relatively small number of freebies (and I think 2 is pretty small) I wouldn't really consider it power creep...

 

[Camelot]

The power creep is intended, along with the monster power creep in the MM3/DSCC to reduce grind.

Quoted for truth. Using the PHB1 and MM1, combats were long and repetitive. To change this, PCs were given better tools. To maintain balance after this, monsters were given better damage and abilities. Now, while both sides have gotten a boost in power, there is still balance, and not as many grind problems. I think this is a good thing.

For themes specifically, having the mechanics support interesting characters is always a good thing. In my game, I care more about each character having an influence on the story than each character being exactly the same in power level. Themes give interesting background, occupation, and niche ideas for players who might have trouble with that sort of thing.

 

[Anthraxus]

I don't have a problem with the themes because they are just intended for Dark Sun.

I just had this discussion last week with a fellow player/DM, and I think we both felt the same way. In Dark Sun, the themes work well. The "freebie" power is not very powerful at all, and adds another option.

I wouldn't shoehorn Themes into any other setting, or let a player use a Theme in a non- Dark Sun campaign.

 

[Camelot]

I just had this discussion last week with a fellow player/DM, and I think we both felt the same way. In Dark Sun, the themes work well. The "freebie" power is not very powerful at all, and adds another option.

I wouldn't shoehorn Themes into any other setting, or let a player use a Theme in a non- Dark Sun campaign.

You'll be missing out. From my quick lookthroughs of the Dark Sun Creature Catalog, the monsters aren't that much more powerful than "normal" monsters, and as I said above, monsters have been buffed as well. So, themes merely reinforce the balance, even outside of Dark Sun.

What makes Dark Sun more difficult is that food and water are more expensive, NPCs are more hostile, and magic items are harder to get (and inherent bonuses are inherently weaker than getting to choose your items). These are all things that only make the story challenging to get through, but doesn't directly effect each combat encounter.

 

[DracoSuave]

Dark Sun gives you a single encounter power. At least you're not statting yourself based on a mean stat of 14, the high being 20 before racial adjustments... which if converted to D&D3/4th edition standards would be of the +4-+8 variety.

It depends on the tone of the game, really. I have no problem with offering them in a game like Dark Sun where you start off might but the challenges are even mightier. Something grimdark and gritty? Of course not. Something over the top and legendariffic? Absolutely.

 

[Dice4Hire]

I have no problems with themes, and I'll bet a bundle that the Heroes of Shadow will have a lot of them in there. Maybe the FR book next year will also. They are a great idea.

Power creep. Well, if you count anything from .000000000001 and above as more powerful, then sure. The extra encounter is another option. Which is nice with 1st level characters who have only one or two, and one of those is racial.

As for backgrounds, I do not use them myself nor really look at them. I hated them in 3.X and in 4E also as a ridiculous min-maxing tool. But they are not that powerful, really, except for a few in the SoW that allow ability scores to count for more things, which is a sure path to brokeness. The ones that just allow different skills are trivial.

I do not want to see 4E start allowing too much else, other than a breadth and variety of powers, but as with all games, you choose what you like and do not like.

I think 4E is being well done in this case. 3.5 had a lot of problems with blatant power inflation. Savage Species, Exalted Deeds and the evil one (forget the name) come immediately to mind.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Color me unworried about the trivial power-inflation. But it does strike me as true that the multitude of options does make 1st level a bit messy. Part of the fun is developing the character - requiring all these choices at first level is a bit much.

If they add such things in the future, I'd prefer them spread out over levels, and not at first level. Perhaps something that requires DM intervention to enable, even though the player chooses the benefit - e.g, reimagined spellscars that are actually scars left by brutal BBEG's - thus the timing and presence (and perhaps general flavor) of the development is in DM hands, but the player (who knows his character best) can choose the relevant effect.

This is my issue with it. Why do the players have to pick a Theme right off? It MIGHT be appropriate to do that, and it very well might not be. I'd really love it if you weren't required to make this choice at level 1. Race/class/background is usually enough to define your neophyte adventurer. Let them become Pirates or Adepts by going out and doing it.

What bites is they dropped in a freebie. Without that most players would probably not feel terribly compelled to take a Theme. Even if the increment of 'power creep' is ZERO players will STILL want that freebie and feel like they're missing something if they don't create a Pirate etc. for a character. It also opens up the almost inevitable situation where one or two Themes are measurably better than the others and you have an endless parade of Gladiators.

Yes, yes, we can just BAN Themes, we know that already, spare us. I don't WANT to ban Themes, I want ones that give starting PCs more flexibility instead of LESS.

 

[mneme]

I think one reason that 4th, in particular, has crept upwards is that they started the power level low to give themselves room (and avoided this "low" becoming abominably high by squashing exploits as they arose). This means that they could experiment with backgrounds, consumables (anyone notice that PH1 D&D4 has no consumables beyond healing potions? Adding them back in certainly increased the upper limits of character power, as a bag of consumables can give characters amazing flexibility!), stronger feats, and now stronger races (Dwarves FTW), themes, and (one expects) more powerful rare items without throwing off the balance of power.

 

[mneme]

It also opens up the almost inevitable situation where one or two Themes are measurably better than the others and you have an endless parade of Gladiators.

Has this happened, though? I mean, even regarding LFR/Paths backgrounds, Bad Sign has been shown to be much better at first level than later, and they -finally- nerfed Windrise ports.

Regarding themes, I see (for non-sucky theme encounter powers):

Veiled Alliance: Seems to get use; invis is a strong controller power.
Noble Adept: Will always get used; nice leader power.
Wilder: Crit nova round setup can be strong.

And I don't have my book with me, so I'll stop there.

 

[bganon]

I actually like characters having an extra option right from the beginning. Level 1 characters have to slog through about 10 battles to hit level 2, and they do all this with two at-wills, one encounter, and a daily. IME many characters have one "preferred" at-will, so 3 out of 4 encounters become "open with lone encounter power, then spam the good at-will for four rounds". This can get BORING. Level 2 doesn't necessarily improve things much; it's really level 3 that spices things up a bit. It's only really at level 7 that they get close to the full variety of per-encounter options that a "normal" 4e character has.

If they're going to add a small bit a flexibility to characters, I'm happy they start it right at level 1 where it's actually noticable. But you are allowed to retrain themes, so I don't think it's a stretch to require your players to be a certain level or perform a certain action before you allow them to take one, if that's the way you want to DM.