I ran a mini-campaign in 2e of multi-class thieves. I had hoped for it to be a campaign but it fizzled. I was going to pit the rogues in the middle of deciding between the thieves' guild, assassins guild, and a counter-terrorist/spy group that were all operating in Waterdeep. I think it's a cool idea for a campaign full of flavor. The DM has to make considerable adjustments for the lack of a good "tank" in the group. I recall the low hp and poor AC's being a routine combat problem for the party.
Anyone ever play or DM a game with this style? How did it work out?
- Thread starter joethelawyer
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Jack7
First Post
That's the life and way of crime alright.
And that's the way it ends...
I can tell ya though Joe about an interesting case I worked one time that might let your boys operate the way you envision for the moderately long term without getting their throats slit by the locals (the organized, long-term gangs), or having to become part of the locals.
I worked a case against a gypsy organization (floaters). They came in every year, around the holidays, picked some careful targets, people who supposedly were small business owners and had goods stashed on property. Maybe in home safes. They committed armed home invasions, and every time they struck they got a little more violent (the same old story). They'd hit two or three homes a year and we pulled in some of the hangers on, but the evidence showed they weren't locals (they were far too smart to hit in their own neighborhoods, or even their own cities).
They were however highly organized, masks, equipment, careful surveillance of targets before they struck, picking older and more established people, hitting around the time neighbors were away with family or friends. Had a complicated and involved scouting, lookout, and communications system. And I always suspected an incredibly good Intel ring and fencing system, though the fencing system was necessarily local.
By their last attack and home invasion they had gang raped a couple of girls who were unlucky enough to be home from college for the holidays. Like all criminals they eventually "worked their way up to the real stuff," in their own minds at least. Came awful close to taking them apart, even got one assistant by FLIR helicopter and drug him down. But the mains absconded.
That was the last year they struck where I was working. Next year nothing. The case dried up eventually and I never really knew what happened to them but I can make these guesses based on prior experience. 1. The group fell apart. one or more members became continuously more and more violent and it scared or ticked off the others. They split and the violent one or ones probably ended up working independently. The other, or others, went cold. 2. They fell afoul of their network, Intel, fencing, or whoever was helping them. And those guys cleared them out once word about their methods got back around to them. 3. They ticked off the wrong set of criminals and they killed them. 4. They picked the wrong target and got arrested, or injured, or killed by their potential victims. 5. They were taken by the Feds or an interstate task force for operating elsewhere. 6. They got taken for unrelated crimes and ended up serving for that, and are still in, broken up, or never again hit their stride. 7. They could have also just retired, but it ain't likely. Once fellas take to beating hostages and raping little girls, they're too far gone to think about early retirement.
In any case they were moderately successful for two years, in my jurisdiction anyway. By criminal standards. But they had to keep moving, they did not operate on home turf, and they were highly organized, if ever more progressively violent - and that, I'm sure, led to their downfall.
Anywho guys like that could operate successfully for awhile.
Don't be surprised though if your players, or your partners if you're thinking about playing in such a group, suddenly decide that petty theft isn't such a great life and want to make the big score with progressively more violent tactics. That's just the way such things operate. Somebody always wants a bigger thrill, a bigger risk, and a bigger take, come hell or high-water, and no matter how they get there.
I ran a mini-campaign in 2e of multi-class thieves. I had hoped for it to be a campaign but it fizzled. I was going to pit the rogues in the middle of deciding between the thieves' guild, assassins guild, and a counter-terrorist/spy group that were all operating in Waterdeep. I think it's a cool idea for a campaign full of flavor. The DM has to make considerable adjustments for the lack of a good "tank" in the group. I recall the low hp and poor AC's being a routine combat problem for the party.
In 3e, this might work a little better thanks to the multi classing rules. In 4e, I'd presume the combat problem would go away, but they would largely be ineffective as "rogues".
In 3e, this might work a little better thanks to the multi classing rules. In 4e, I'd presume the combat problem would go away, but they would largely be ineffective as "rogues".
Remathilis
Legend
I've noticed this with "evil" or certainly amoral parties: you need something stronger than them to keep them in line. An organized thieves guild is one example. A overlord boss is another. If they don't get loyalty out of respect, they get it through fear.
This, I have found, is the only thing that stops PCs from slitting their own throats. Truly amoral PCs (and that seems to be the way you're leaning, if I'm not mistaken) don't value the bonds of loyalty friendship would encourage, and thus you get the Pirate's Code: Whoever fall's behind, is left behind.
It starts small; cutting yourself a larger share of the treasure, hitting yourself up for a "side-job" without your mates. In a hierarchical system of promotion, it often leads to undercutting your "allies" to prop up your worth. Remember, these people are looking for the big score. Number 1 is all that matters. It usually culminates at the failed job; once the guards come, they scatter. The dead or wounded are left. The captured squeal.
Unless you establish a "law" (even one akin to la costa nostra) the amoral thief game often disintergrates.
That said, if you have a mature RPG group, more power to ya.
This, I have found, is the only thing that stops PCs from slitting their own throats. Truly amoral PCs (and that seems to be the way you're leaning, if I'm not mistaken) don't value the bonds of loyalty friendship would encourage, and thus you get the Pirate's Code: Whoever fall's behind, is left behind.
It starts small; cutting yourself a larger share of the treasure, hitting yourself up for a "side-job" without your mates. In a hierarchical system of promotion, it often leads to undercutting your "allies" to prop up your worth. Remember, these people are looking for the big score. Number 1 is all that matters. It usually culminates at the failed job; once the guards come, they scatter. The dead or wounded are left. The captured squeal.
Unless you establish a "law" (even one akin to la costa nostra) the amoral thief game often disintergrates.
That said, if you have a mature RPG group, more power to ya.
Jack7
First Post
If you could keep everybody from killing each other, and the players from being killed once word got out they were circulating in all three groups (I'm assuming they had contacts with all three groups) then it sounds like a really interesting campaign, full of intrigue, to me too.
I'm kinda surprised it fizzled.
Unless the players really just weren't interested in that kind of thing.
I'm not.
"No plans other than the next heist and how to blow the money afterwards. No fears other than of having to live life by someone else's rules. No desires that can't be satiated by brains, balls, and a bit of luck.
The jobs and heists don't build to some grand campaign. There is no greater purpose. The meaning of life is to live it by enjoying it to its fullest."
It sounds... kind of dull for the players. Sure, the characters are indulging in wine, women, and song, but for the players it is more a series of tactical adventures without guiding principle or motive. While the obstacles might change, one adventure is rather like the last one in the end. Since they don't go anywhere, plot wise, the adventures may start to blur together.
Do not underestimate the power of story continuity and plot to motivate players.
Fallen Seraph
First Post
I have run this type of game as well. But I would add that I agree completely with Umbran. I may start with simple heists, etc. But slowly a more consistent plot develops over-time, so to keep the players interested and well it is simply my play/campaign style to have a longterm plotline.
Xyxox
Hero
I ran a campaign based in Lankhmar for about two years back in the early 90s. Just two characters who were basically opposed to the city thieves guild. We ran that campaign whenever we couldn't get more than the two most regular players together.
Loads of fun.
Watch:
TV:
Leverage (TNT)
Burn Notice (USA)
Heist (Ended)
The first deals with a team of professional thieves who steal from bad guys in order to give it back to the little guy.
The second is about a spy who is black-listed, and while finding out about about that, uses his spy training to screw up bad guys in order to help the little guy.
The third is about a group of professional criminals who continue to organize and prepare for a massive heist of three jewelry stores at once.
While the first two are "Robin Hood"ish and a lot relies on technology, it should give you a thorough footing.
Movies:
Inside Man
Ocean's (Insert Number)
How I would do this is either:
1) Thieves Guild. The PCs are low-level recruits. They could be of any class (Fighter: Money collector/runner. Rogue: Pick-pocket. Mage: Magical communication or concealment). The PCs work their way up the ladder (Fighter: Enforcer. Rogue: Cat Burgler/Safe Cracker. Mage: Magical security cracker.) They run through guild-based missions, deal with inter-guild strife, the city watch, freelance thieves. When they become Guild heads, they have to deal with inter-guild problems, coups, issues with the city, etc.
2) Private group. Similar to the thieves guild, but instead of a guild, they are just a team. They could do odd jobs, but they might simply do for-hire jobs, as well as counter-intelligence (preventing thieves from stealing/stopping enemies from gathering intel), consultation (How do we better protect our place), bodyguard work, and things like this. They could also be professional con artists/scammers.
The problem with anything but #1 is that, PCs who stick around and continue to be criminals in a city are going to get a reputation. Unless they are part of an organization, then just continuing to rip off people around town, they're going to run out of targets, and people are going to come after them on a regular basis. (This is why Thieves Guilds have multiple thieves, not just one guy or group that goes around burglaring everyone. Once you've stolen from everybody, going back is more difficult/they might not have enough.)
One solution is to have them steal from other thieves. For no other reason than "This is our territory" or the challenge of stealing from another professional. Smugglers, con artists, rival burglars. They could try to steal from them, or completely shut down the other's operation. (And some group might try to do that to the PCs!)
TV:
Leverage (TNT)
Burn Notice (USA)
Heist (Ended)
The first deals with a team of professional thieves who steal from bad guys in order to give it back to the little guy.
The second is about a spy who is black-listed, and while finding out about about that, uses his spy training to screw up bad guys in order to help the little guy.
The third is about a group of professional criminals who continue to organize and prepare for a massive heist of three jewelry stores at once.
While the first two are "Robin Hood"ish and a lot relies on technology, it should give you a thorough footing.
Movies:
Inside Man
Ocean's (Insert Number)
How I would do this is either:
1) Thieves Guild. The PCs are low-level recruits. They could be of any class (Fighter: Money collector/runner. Rogue: Pick-pocket. Mage: Magical communication or concealment). The PCs work their way up the ladder (Fighter: Enforcer. Rogue: Cat Burgler/Safe Cracker. Mage: Magical security cracker.) They run through guild-based missions, deal with inter-guild strife, the city watch, freelance thieves. When they become Guild heads, they have to deal with inter-guild problems, coups, issues with the city, etc.
2) Private group. Similar to the thieves guild, but instead of a guild, they are just a team. They could do odd jobs, but they might simply do for-hire jobs, as well as counter-intelligence (preventing thieves from stealing/stopping enemies from gathering intel), consultation (How do we better protect our place), bodyguard work, and things like this. They could also be professional con artists/scammers.
The problem with anything but #1 is that, PCs who stick around and continue to be criminals in a city are going to get a reputation. Unless they are part of an organization, then just continuing to rip off people around town, they're going to run out of targets, and people are going to come after them on a regular basis. (This is why Thieves Guilds have multiple thieves, not just one guy or group that goes around burglaring everyone. Once you've stolen from everybody, going back is more difficult/they might not have enough.)
One solution is to have them steal from other thieves. For no other reason than "This is our territory" or the challenge of stealing from another professional. Smugglers, con artists, rival burglars. They could try to steal from them, or completely shut down the other's operation. (And some group might try to do that to the PCs!)
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An old group and I tried it for one session (with the thought of extending it to a campaign is it "sparked" interest). However, we were having difficulty coming up with *plausible* (in-game) reasons for everyone to trust one another.
It turned in to "race to be the first one in the room and taking all the loot yourself and not telling the others. I even tried getting one piece of information to each of them (based on background and found in-game info) but they never wanted to share info with one another.
It ended with everyone (in character) trying to backstab everyone else in order to maximize their own take.
It was not a very group-friendly type scenario.
It turned in to "race to be the first one in the room and taking all the loot yourself and not telling the others. I even tried getting one piece of information to each of them (based on background and found in-game info) but they never wanted to share info with one another.
It ended with everyone (in character) trying to backstab everyone else in order to maximize their own take.
It was not a very group-friendly type scenario.
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