Anyone have Strongholds and Dynasties or Empires?

[Tyler Do'Urden]

bump

any word on Mongoose's Stronghold and Dynasties?

Also, are there any other works covering this?

A Magical Medieval Society "sort of" covers this territory, but it doesn't do a sufficiently thorough job on the stuff that matters for domain-ruling, while it's excessively detailed in areas which are less relevant. Not that it's a useless book, it's certainly not, but it leaves a lot to be desired and doesn't translate too well into a workable system for managing domains.

The oD&D rules from the Cyclopedia could be adapted too, but they have very, very significant shortcomings- and seem to leave a lot of gaps to be filled in.

There's Birthright 3e- I looked at these rules, but they are, in many ways, too tied to the setting, and don't scale terribly well.

An issue of Dragon that came out I believe in Spring of 2001 had domain rules, but they were insufficiently detailed, and scale even worse than the Birthright rules do... way too abstract for my tastes.

Dynasties and Demagogues, the Penumbra sourcebook, has good rules for politics, but nothing for actual domain management!

I've flipped through AEG's new one... it seems a bit too cludgy. I'm looking for something a bit more elegant. Anyone interested in trying to integrate these disparate systems into a workable set of domain rules with me? Want to start an "open domain rules" project? Or should we just wait and see what Mongoose will come up with? And, since both AEG and Mongoose have come out with a book on the subject, might FFG also come out with one, given that the three have a tendency to copy each other (I generally prefer Fantasy Flight's books over the other two, anyway, since they always seem to stick closer to the WotC books and assumptions than the others do...)

 

[Silveras]

A Magical Medieval Society "sort of" covers this territory, but it doesn't do a sufficiently thorough job on the stuff that matters for domain-ruling, while it's excessively detailed in areas which are less relevant. Not that it's a useless book, it's certainly not, but it leaves a lot to be desired and doesn't translate too well into a workable system for managing domains.

MMS:WE seems more a world-builder's book. What it produces serves better as GM notes than as a "Character Record" for a kingdom. The detailed management of more than a couple of Manors would quickly become a tedious chore (which is why Stewards were hired in the first place).

The oD&D rules from the Cyclopedia could be adapted too, but they have very, very significant shortcomings- and seem to leave a lot of gaps to be filled in.

True

There's Birthright 3e- I looked at these rules, but they are, in many ways, too tied to the setting, and don't scale terribly well.

I mentioned the scaling earlier. I did not mention the close ties to the setting, but that is also true. I was working to adapt the system to a more generic set of rules (and havea long Word document covering much of it), but this has the liability of being derivative of copyrighted material owned by someone else (Wizards).

An issue of Dragon that came out I believe in Spring of 2001 had domain rules, but they were insufficiently detailed, and scale even worse than the Birthright rules do... way too abstract for my tastes.

Actually, these were based on the Birthright rules, according to the article intro. They were meant to be a simpler, more generic application of the same principles.

Dynasties and Demagogues, the Penumbra sourcebook, has good rules for politics, but nothing for actual domain management!

Can't comment on that.

I've flipped through AEG's new one... it seems a bit too cludgy. I'm looking for something a bit more elegant. Anyone interested in trying to integrate these disparate systems into a workable set of domain rules with me? Want to start an "open domain rules" project? Or should we just wait and see what Mongoose will come up with? And, since both AEG and Mongoose have come out with a book on the subject, might FFG also come out with one, given that the three have a tendency to copy each other (I generally prefer Fantasy Flight's books over the other two, anyway, since they always seem to stick closer to the WotC books and assumptions than the others do...)

I have some notes on what I would add to Empire. It looks like the system is part of the open content of the book, so a work that builds on it should be eminently possible.

 

[MarauderX]

I've given up waiting for Fields of Blood and have switched my anticipation over to AEG's Empires.

In my opinion the name Mike Mearls on a product is about as close to a "Seal of Approval" as you are going to get (Along with three or four other individual Authors and one Publisher just to keep Mearls' ego in check ).

Um, I thought Fields O' Blood came out already... check here.

And it has a 5-star review.

edit: Barnes & Noble "does not have an available copy at this time." Amazon says it hasn't been released yet.

 

[Teflon Billy]

Um, I thought Fields O' Blood came out already... check here.

And it has a 5-star review.

edit: Barnes & Noble "does not have an available copy at this time." Amazon says it hasn't been released yet.

Wierd. I haven't seen (or heard of anyone having) a copy.

It's roundly considered to be vaporware by most of the folks who have been waiting 2 or so years for it.

Maybe that guy got a look at a working copy or soemthing.

I'm going to spost that link over at the publishers forum and see what the folks at Eden have to say.

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

I have some notes on what I would add to Empire. It looks like the system is part of the open content of the book, so a work that builds on it should be eminently possible.

I'll have to pick up a copy then... when a store in my town gets it in. I'll check today. I'd love to work on an adaptation of it.

 

[Tyler Do'Urden]

*bump*

Well, I ordered Empires from amazon.com (it was cheaper than going local, since I also wanted a copy of Siege on Ebonring Keep). I should have it by the end of the week. Any chance I could see your notes on reworking the Empires and the Birthright rules, Silveras? I'd really like to see what you've come up with, too.

 

[Silveras]

*bump*
Any chance I could see your notes on reworking the Empires and the Birthright rules, Silveras? I'd really like to see what you've come up with, too.

The Birthright ones are a bit too big for easy sharing. It has become a long document, much of which was cut-and-paste-d from the original BR rules. In many ways, BR was a preview of what was coming in 3rd Edition (d20 checks vs DCs for actions, especially).

In the meantime, here are some of my notes for Empire:
Additions

Mineral Resources - Gems

Dice %	Average Value	Stone Grades	Gold units per resource unit	Yield Units / space
01-25	10	        Decorative      10 gems / 1 gold	        5
26-50	50	        Fancy	        2 gems / 1 gold                 3
51-70	100	        Semi-Precious   1 gems / 1 gold                 1
71-90	500	        Precious	5 gold / 1 gems                 0.5
91-99	1,000	        Gems	        10 gold / 1 gems                0.2
100	5,000	        Jewels	        50 gold / 1 gems                0.1

Plant Resources
Herbs
Spices
Plant Creatures

Animal Resources
Rare Breed
Domesticated Magical Beast (Requires ‘Husbandry Guild’ upgrade)
Parts – Ivory = 1gold per 3 ivory

Trade Goods
1 Gold + 1 Gems value gold = 1 Fine jewelry (sells for 4 gold / unit)
1 Silver + 1 Gems value gold = 1 jewelry (sells for 3 gold / unit)
You may substitute Gems for metals in making magic items

Ship Building (requires Port upgrade)
War ships
Merchant Ships
Fishing Fleet

Terrain
Ocean – produces 3 food + 0.2 Ivory

Alternative power bases

Religious
Religious organizations can own land, but do not have to. If they own land, they receive the usual benefits. Separately from the income of a normal barony/kingdom/empire, a religious organization receives bonus gold from the veneration of the people (1 gold / 5 population). Multiple religious organizations can co-exist within the confines of a realm, unless it is a theocracy. In such cases, each population unit has a loyalty to the religion that may change over time. The religions can agitate to affect the loyalty of the people to the crown and to other religions.

Magical
Magical organizations are less interested in land than they are in tapping magical power. Nexus points and Ley Lines are the resources they care most about.

Martial
Martial organizations seldom exist separate from the state. Most such bands are small mercenary companies.

Criminal
Criminal organizations are focused on making money. They steal goods and money from other organizations (reducing the State or Other’s income and resources). Each season, roll 1d20 for each category of resources (Food, Gold, Minerals, each type of Trade Goods); on a 15 or better, 1 unit is stolen. Transfer 1 unit from the original owner to the Criminal organization. The Criminal organization can dispose of each unit as it pleases.

Mercantile
Mercantile organizations are focused on making money honestly. They provide conduits to foreign trade channels, and make additional profits on the side. Unless they also own some land, mercantile organizations do not have any ability to harvest resources. They must trade for them, so it requires a large outlay of gold to establish a new Mercantile organization. When making any purchase or sale that involves multiple resource units to the gold unit, roll 1d20. On a 15 or greater, the Mercantile organization is able to improve the exchange by 1 unit in its favor. For example, if the Mercantile organization was trading 10 Food for 1 Gold, it pays 9 Food instead (and keeps the remaining 1, for other uses). If it was buying 10 Foor for 1 Gold, it would get 11 Food instead.

Relations between Other Power Bases and State
State’s attitude toward the Other base
Hostile – Outright hostilities have, or soon will, break out. Membership in the Other base is a crime for citizens of the state. Soldiers of the state routinely arrest or kill identified members of the Other base. Specialist squads (Adventurers, Assassins, etc.) may be dispatched to make raids against the Other base.
Unfriendly – The state tries to repress membership and activities by the other power base. Soldiers routinely harass identified members of the Other base.
Indifferent – The state tends to ignore the Other base, content that their plans are different enough not to be a problem.
Friendly – The state and the Other, while not allied, see some value in each other. The state may encourage membership in the Other base as a way of promoting responsible (and compatible) use of advanced abilities.
Helpful – The state and the Other base are allied and work to help each other. The State provides active support for the Other base, encouraging membership and offering support if the Other base is short of money, food, etc.

Other base attitude toward State
Hostile – The Other base opposes the goals of the State. The Other base works to undermine the actions of the state as often as possible, and has raised forces with which to oppose the state. Specialist squads may be dispatched to disrupt the state military or civil operations.
Unfriendly – The Other base disapproves of the State’s actions and/or goals. The Other base uses its influence to disrupt the operations of the State, short of outright combat. The members of the Other might perform small acts of civil disobedience (providing sanctuary to a wanted criminal, for example).
Indifferent – The state and the Other base tend to ignore each other, content that their plans are different enough not to be a problem. The Other does not go out of its way to support the state, neither does it actively oppose it.
Friendly – The Other base, while not fully supporting the State, approves of most of its goals. The Other will sometimes provide limited support for the state for nominal fees (turning in a wanted criminal, for example)
Helpful – The state and the Other base are allied and work to help each other. The Other is willing to expend its resources to support the state (lending money if the state is short cash, or using its spells to capture an enemy agent, for example).

Note that the state’s attitude toward the Other may not be the same as the Other’s attitude toward the state.

Relations between the leaders- This becomes a modifier to diplomacy checks between the two organizations.
Hostile – -8
Unfriendly – -4
Indifferent – 0
Friendly – +4
Helpful – +8


Additional Projects
Religious organizations can build Monasteries and Abbeys.
Monasteries provide training for Clerics, Blackguards, Paladins, and Monks, as do Abbeys. The existence of such locations allows the religion to promote one military unit from Warriors to Fighters. Fighter units may subsequently be “promoted” to Paladins or Blackguards. Such a promotion is taxing, however, and a religion can support only a limited number of such units in any realm. Monasteries and Abbeys do not add to the living space, population, or productivity of a land unit, as they strive for self-sufficiency. Monasteries also may not be placed in land units that are occupied or harvested, making them an excellent choice for making use of Wasteland.

Magical organizations can establish Power Nodes and Towers

Commercial organizations can build Warehouses and Strongrooms. Warehouses are upgrades to a Village or City that facilitate the gathering of supplies in any land. In a land where the Mercantile organization is Friendly, a Warehouse adds 10% to the Gold value of all resources gathered. Warehouses have a capacity of 20 resource units (any types). Strongrooms are stronger and more secured versions of the Warehouse, which provide the Warehouse benefit plus increases the DC for theft by +5 (to 20) for goods stored there; however, Strongrooms sacrifice space and can only hold 10 resource units (any type).

 

[mearls]

Hey,

That stuff looks pretty cool so far. We couldn't fit anything aside from a land = power take on rulership in Empire. The book was pretty crammed to begin with, especially with the mass combat rules. In terms of design, I pretty much drew inspiration from the old D&D Companion Set. I wanted to replicate the basic role of War Machine and the domain management tools. C1: Test of the Warlords has to be one of my favorite all time modules. It formed a major part of post-Expert set portion of the D&D campaign I ran in junior high.

In terms of design, I tried to build most of the differences into the system in terms of the ruler's character class, the citizens of the realm, and a few other places. Had the book been 100% rulership (as opposed to a 50/50 split with rules for mass combat) alternative power sources would've been in there.

I think you're defintely on the right path there. I like the idea of giving wizardly organizations power nodes and ley lines to fight over. Good stuff.

I highly recommend Chris Aylott's Dynasties and Demagogues, published by Atlas Games. It goes into a lot more detail on politics than Empire. The two books complement each other very well.

 

[Silveras]

Hey,

That stuff looks pretty cool so far. We couldn't fit anything aside from a land = power take on rulership in Empire. The book was pretty crammed to begin with, especially with the mass combat rules. In terms of design

-- snip --

I highly recommend Chris Aylott's Dynasties and Demagogues, published by Atlas Games. It goes into a lot more detail on politics than Empire. The two books complement each other very well.

Thanks, Mr. Mearls, I was hoping you might offer some insights into the design process. I agree that the book is densely packed, but that 50/50 split is why I said it "felt cut down".

It is also worth noting that the suggestions I offered greatly increase the record-keeping, and may not be to everyone's taste. Certainly, those without PCs will find it more difficult to maintain records.

 

[johnsemlak]

Thanks for the response. Always nice to have one of the authors comment on their products here

Would you consider a webenhancement incorperating some of the stuff 'left out'?

C1: Test of the Warlords has to be one of my favorite all time modules.

Then you may remember that it was CM1: The Test of the Warlords.

I highly recommend Chris Aylott's Dynasties and Demagogues, published by Atlas Games.

Ordered. Oh, and I'm ordering Empire as well.