Anyone play with alternative dice?

[Tuzenbach]

And so last week I get the bright idea that if there were dice out there with 3, 5, 7, etc., sides that these might be fun to incorporate into my campaigns on a house-rule basis............OR TO SELL! This morning I decided to research the originality of my idea. Unfortunately, I came across the following site:

http://www.gamescience.com/

Anybody use these? Some comments:

1) There is no way I'd ever pay $5 for A SINGLE DIE!
2) I love how one of the selling points for the product is "unlike most gaming dice that roll unevenly, OUR dice are BALANCED and have been TESTED!" LoL
3) The 2-year guarantee. LoL. What, after 730 days they explode?
4) Why do I find it very difficult to accept that no one else in the world can produce a d5 or a d24 because these guys apparently "hold a US patent"? It doesn't stop this company from selling d4's, d8's, d20's, etc.

Anyway, that's my little rant on alternative dice. Personally, wizards and the like (IMC) would use the d5 for hp rather than the d4.........BUT NOT AT $5 PER DIE! I'm thinking a d7 for Druids and Bards, too.

Can anybody enlighten me as to where I'd have to go to figure out whether or not I'd be able to make and sell my own alternative dice? Again, I seriously question the validity of their claim that no one else can produce d5's and such. However, I also have close to nil knowledge about patents and copyright laws. Common sense tells me that I'm right, though. Thanks in advance!

 

[pogre]

I'm not here to drag this into an extended intellectual property rights discussion, but I can see how they have patented those dice designs. Those odd dice faces really required new shapes specifically for these dice, and not ancient geometric designs like those used for the other dice you mentioned. IAAL BTW.

$5 may be quite reasonable for a retail price. Exactly how could you beat them on the manufactured price for such unusual dice. Consider, they are selling these to distributors for around $2.00 - If they are making at least 15% on them that means their total manufacturing cost is around $1.70. They may be making a lot more on them, but remember these kind of dice are not going to be huge sellers.

 

[Coredump]

Aside from the novelty... I see no reason to own them anyway.

If you want to use a D5 for HP, just roll a D6, and reroll any 6's. Since you only do one roll every few weeks, it shouldn't be a big deal.

Now, if you want you main weapon to use 2D5 damage... then maybe.

 

[Tuzenbach]

I'm not here to drag this into an extended intellectual property rights discussion, but I can see how they have patented those dice designs. Those odd dice faces really required new shapes specifically for these dice, and not ancient geometric designs like those used for the other dice you mentioned. IAAL BTW.

Let me guess.........IAAL="I Am A Lawyer"?

Well, when cars were invented it's not like it made sense for the inventor to claim "nobody else in the world can make cars but me & my company". OK, he probably *did*, but to no avail. Needless to say, Ford can't come out with a vehicle and call it a Dodge, but both Ford and Dodge can make and sell vehicles separately, just with their own name on it.

I see dice the same way. Something with 5 sides is, well, 5 sided. Assuming all sides are equal to each other, there you have it. Nature already has created an equal, 5-sided shape. Man only reproduced it with math. Math was created by man thousands of years ago. These guys at gamescience didn't invent a 5-sided shape, they merely took an existing shape with five sides, put five different numerals on said sides, called it a die, and are selling it at outrageous prices.

$5 may be quite reasonable for a retail price. Exactly how could you beat them on the manufactured price for such unusual dice. Consider, they are selling these to distributors for around $2.00 - If they are making at least 15% on them that means their total manufacturing cost is around $1.70. They may be making a lot more on them, but remember these kind of dice are not going to be huge sellers.

No. I would sell packages of dice the way conventional game dice are sold. A set of a d2, d3, d5, d7, d9, and d11 for $11.99. The seemingly minimal price (at least compared with five bucks for ONE!) would be in an effort to discourage the fact that the dice aren't huge sellers. I can't see the total manufacturing cost of a piece of plastic with some paint to be $1.70. CDs cost under a dollar to make.

 

[babomb]

If they hold a US Patent for the die, they have “the right to exclude others from making, using, offering for sale, or selling” it in or “importing” it into the United States. Furthermore, they can apply for an international patent to provide protection worldwide.

Nobody holds a patent for normal d4s, etc., because those shapes have been known since ancient times. This die is "new" and "non-obvious" and therefore patentable.

Therefore, your doubts as to the validity of their claim are unfounded, assuming that they do actually have a patent (and I see no reason why they wouldn't). However, I haven't found the patent in question.

The site doesn't list a patent number, so I searched for patents assigned to Gamescience. The only result was
a 1983 patent for a d10 design. I also tried searching for the inventor or this patent, but couldn't find any others. Next, I tried patents invented by Lou Zocchi, the inventor listed on the Gamescience site. The only result was a 1985 patent for a golfball-style die (e.g., d100) I found a few other interesting patents in searching for patents that reference those patents or searching for game dice, including a d50, gem-shaped dice, and a new d4 design assigned to TSR, Inc.! (Interestingly enough, the TSR patent cites a couple of issues of Dragon.

So, is it actually patented? I don't know. Probably. Now, if you want to make 5-sided dice for your own personal use, that's your business. I wouldn't try to sell any, though.

Also, the 2-year guarantee is against "premature wear and tear under normal gaming conditions".

 

[babomb]

Well, when cars were invented it's not like it made sense for the inventor to claim "nobody else in the world can make cars but me & my company".

That's actually the main purpose of a patent.

Needless to say, Ford can't come out with a vehicle and call it a Dodge, but both Ford and Dodge can make and sell vehicles separately, just with their own name on it.

Ford and Dodge are trademarks. That's a whole 'nother discussion.

I see dice the same way. Something with 5 sides is, well, 5 sided. Assuming all sides are equal to each other, there you have it.

The sides AREN'T all equal. In the case of the d5, two faces are triangles, and the other three are rectangles. The relative sizes of the faces are adjusted so that the probability of landing on each side is about the same.

Nature already has created an equal, 5-sided shape.

You mean a pentagon? Because in the case of 3D figures, such a shape would require the use of curved faces. Otherwise, it's mathematically impossible.

Man only reproduced it with math. Math was created by man thousands of years ago.

The methods used to invent something are irrelevant. Smelting was invented a long time ago, but that doesn't mean I can't patent something made out of iron. Mathematical formulae are not considered patentable, but products made using mathematical formulae are fair game.

 

[Black Knight]

By "alternative dice" are you talking about the garishly pink ones that are always angry at their parents, listen to sarcastically depressing music, and shop at Hot Topic? (I know, bad joke)

I do use my d30, d32, and d36 from time to time. I also have a complete set of random dungeon dice (most are d6s) that can make for some really fun maze locations.

 

[Tuzenbach]

"non-obvious" and therefore patentable.

This is completely subjective. To me, the numbers 5, 9, and 7 are just as obvious as the numbers 4, 6, and 8. The d4 would never have worked if some bright person hadn't thought out that arrangement of putting the numbers on the edges. Yet nobody holds a patent on the d4.

a new d4 design assigned to TSR, Inc.[/url]! (Interestingly enough, the TSR patent cites a couple of issues of Dragon.

I know! I've got several "gem-style" d4's & d6's. They're neat!



Thanks for the advice, babomb, you're "dabomb". Get it?

 

[pogre]

This is completely subjective. To me, the numbers 5, 9, and 7 are just as obvious as the numbers 4, 6, and 8. The d4 would never have worked if some bright person hadn't thought out that arrangement of putting the numbers on the edges. Yet nobody holds a patent on the d4.

Good luck - I love all kinds of dice. Let us know if you go through with this.

PS - IAAL means exactly what you suggested. I do encourage you to consult with an attorney before forging ahead.

 

[Tuzenbach]

Good luck - I love all kinds of dice. Let us know if you go through with this.

PS - IAAL means exactly what you suggested. I do encourage you to consult with an attorney before forging ahead.

Thanks!

I've been playing with modeling clay for over an hour trying to figure out the d5. There's no way the gamescience one would work unless the sides with the rectangles had numbers on the edges the same way the d4 has numbers on it's edges. So the side with the 5 (triangle) and the opposite side (1?) would be easy to read, but the others you'd have to figure out which numbers were facing in which direction. Unless I'm completely daft!

babomb, from the way you've described it, you probably own one. Am I right in my assumption? Is there a 3-d picture of this dice on the Web anywhere?

Anyway, I've figured out a way to construct my own d5. No, it won't have two faces of a triangle and three of a rectangle!