Anything wrong with the Astral Constructs?

doing a quick comparison to Summ Nat Allay IV- the monsters either have +45 hp and AC 16
or 20+ ac and 20 hp, with more of the former. Astral constructs have 45 hp & Ac 22 if you are worried about it surviving you can give it +4 AC, or +15 hp if damage an extra attack, grapple or more strength.

Battle of all alignments: http://www.enworld.org/forumdisplay.php?f=217
We set up a tournament where so far each alignment has fought against 187 neutral creatures,
starting at CR 1/2 and going up to CR 19, each one of the listed astral constructs fought against a similar CR creature from each alignment. With Astral constructs usually winning at least 2 or 3 matches.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Any chance the normal summons are weak and pathetic? :p

So do the 3.5 'construct bonus HP" push them over the top? That just got tacked on in the upgrade without balance concern 'because they are constructs'



Astral Construct Menu A
A manifester creating a 1st-level, 2nd-level, or 3rd-level astral construct can choose one special ability from this menu.
Buff (Ex)

The astral construct gains an extra 5 hit points.
Celerity (Ex)

The astral construct’s land speed is increased by 10 feet.
Cleave (Ex)

The astral construct gains the Cleave feat.
Deflection (Ex)

The astral construct gains a +1 deflection bonus to Armor Class.
Fly (Ex)

The astral construct has physical wings and a fly speed of 20 feet (average).
Improved Bull Rush (Ex)

The astral construct gains the Improved Bull Rush feat.
Improved Slam Attack (Ex)

The astral construct gains the Improved Natural Attack feat.
Mobility (Ex)

The astral construct gains the Mobility feat.
Power Attack (Ex)

The astral construct gains the Power Attack feat.
Resistance (Ex)

Choose one of the following energy types: fire, cold, acid, electricity, or sonic. The astral construct gains resistance 5 against that energy type.
Swim (Ex)

The astral construct is streamlined and sharklike, and gains a swim speed of 30 feet.
Trip (Ex)

If the astral construct hits with a slam attack, it can attempt to trip the opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking attacks of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the astral construct.
1st-Level Astral Construct
Size/Type: Small Construct
Hit Dice: 1d10+10 (15 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 30 ft. (6 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+2 Dex, +5 natural, +1 size), touch 13, flatfooted 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +2/-1
Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d4+3)
Full Attack: Slam +3 melee (1d4+3)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: One ability from Menu A, construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +0
Abilities: Str 15, Dex 15, Con Ø, Int Ø, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1/2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —
2nd-Level Astral Construct
Size/Type: Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 2d10+20 (31 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 18 (+2 Dex, +6 natural), touch 12, flat-footed 16
Base Attack/Grapple: +3/+4
Attack: Slam +4 melee (1d6+4)
Full Attack: Slam +4 melee (1d6+4)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: One ability from Menu A, construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +0
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 15, Con Ø, Int Ø, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —
3rd-Level Astral Construct
Size/Type: Medium Construct
Hit Dice: 3d10+20 (36 hp)
Initiative: +2
Speed: 40 ft. (8 squares)
Armor Class: 20 (+2 Dex, +8 natural), touch 12, flatfooted 18
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+7
Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d6+7)
Full Attack: Slam +7 melee (1d6+7)
Space/Reach: 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: —
Special Qualities: One ability from Menu A, construct traits, darkvision 60 ft., low-light vision
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +1
Abilities: Str 21, Dex 15, Con Ø, Int Ø, Wis 11, Cha 10
Skills: —
Feats: —
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —
Level Adjustment: —
 

frankthedm said:
Any chance the normal summons are weak and pathetic? :p

So do the 3.5 'construct bonus HP" push them over the top? That just got tacked on in the upgrade without balance concern 'because they are constructs'

I would say the problem is the high AC and construct qualities.

For a disposable creature, being a construct is an asset. It appears to be balanced if you assume being a construct is a liability for some silly reason.

The key vulnerabilities of Animals tend to be their low AC and Will saves. Constructs have good ACs and their various intrisic immunities are pretty valuable as well. The combo puts them over the top.

I would also note the astral constructs are unusually tough flyers as summoned critters go, even if they are rather clumsy ones.
 

Compared with the best combat (ie - the best in a stand-up fight) summons, astral constructs have too many hitpoints, too high an AC and extra immunities from being a construct. Typically they trade a small amount of land-speed for this.

Since you can have the summon show up right next to it's targets, this is rarely a disadvantage.

IOW - they're simply too good. Without the extra construct HP, however, they'd be too weak.
 

As an alternative question (for those who still have access to the old 3.0 SRD) how would the old 3.0 astral constructs look to you with maybe the hit point kicker? They have lower AC and damage and overall stats, but they do get more "menu" choices per level.
 

Found it:

(I'm only posting the first four here, because those are the levels I'm working with: )

--------------------------------
1st-Level Astral Construct
Small Construct
Hit Dice: 1d10 (5 hp)
Initiative: +2 (Dex)
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 14 (+1 size, +2 Dex, +1 natural)
Attacks: Slam +2 melee
Damage: Slam 1d4+1
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: 1 ability from Menu A
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 12, Cha 6
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1/3
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —



2nd-Level Astral Construct
Medium-Size Construct
Hit Dice: 2d10 (11 hp)
Initiative: +2 (Dex)
Speed: 40 ft.
AC: 14 (+2 Dex, +2 natural)
Attacks: Slam +2 melee
Damage: Slam 1d6+1
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: 2 abilities from Menu A
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +1
Abilities: Str 13, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 12, Cha 6
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 1
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —


3rd-Level Astral Construct
Medium-Size Construct
Hit Dice: 2d10 (11 hp)
Initiative: +2 (Dex)
Speed: 40 ft
AC: 16 (+2 Dex, +4 natural)
Attacks: Slam +4 melee
Damage: Slam 1d6+4
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./5 ft.
Special Attacks: 3 abilities from Menu A
Saves: Fort +0, Ref +2, Will +2
Abilities: Str 17, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 15, Cha 6
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 2
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral
Advancement: —


4th-Level Astral Construct
Large Construct
Hit Dice: 5d10 (27 hp)
Initiative: +2 (Dex)
Speed: 50 ft.
AC: 16 (–1 size, +2 Dex, +5 natural)
Attacks: Slam +9 melee
Damage: Slam 1d8+10
Face/Reach: 5 ft. by 5 ft./10 ft.
Special Attacks: 1 ability from Menu B
Special Qualities: Damage reduction 5/+1
Saves: Fort +1, Ref +3, Will +3
Abilities: Str 25, Dex 15, Con —, Int —, Wis 15, Cha 6
Climate/Terrain: Any land and underground
Organization: Solitary
Challenge Rating: 4
Treasure: None
Alignment: Always neutral

-----------------------------------------

Astral Construct Menu A
Additional Attack: One additional attack at highest attack bonus; both attacks –2 to attack roll.
Armor (Ex): +1 deflection bonus to AC.
Fly (Ex): Construct has physical wings (6-foot wingspan). Speed 60 ft. (average).
Resistance (Ex): Choose one of fire, cold, acid, electricity, or sonic resistance 5. The same resistance can be chosen multiple times and stacks.
Sprint (Ex): Once per hour, the construct can take a charge action to move 10 times normal speed.
Swim: Construct becomes streamlined and sharklike. Speed 60 ft.
Trample (Ex): As a standard action during its turn each round, the construct can run over an opponent at least one size smaller than itself. It merely has to move over the opponent to deal bludgeoning damage equal to 1d4 + Strength modifier.
Trip (Ex): If the construct hits with a slam attack it can attempt to trip the opponent as a free action without making a touch attack or provoking an attack of opportunity. If the attempt fails, the opponent cannot react to trip the astral construct.


Astral Construct Menu B
(Any choice from this menu may be replaced with two choices on Menu A.)
Buff (Ex): Construct gains 3d10 temporary hit points (multiple selections do not stack).
Charge (Ex): If the construct charges a foe during the first round of combat, it can make a full attack even if it has already taken a move action. If it has the squeeze ability, it can also use this (see entry below).
Heavy Armor (Ex): +4 deflection bonus to AC.
Improved Grab (Ex): To use this ability, the construct must hit with its slam attack. If it gets a hold, it can squeeze (must have the squeeze ability; see entry below).
Smack Down (Su): Once per day the construct can make a normal attack to deal additional damage equal to its HD.
Squeeze (Ex): A construct that gets a hold can make a squeeze attack (+9 melee) to deal damage of 2d4 + Strength modifier. If it charges an opponent on the first round of combat, it can also squeeze (must also have the charge ability; see entry above).
 

Well in my small experience with astral constructs they are quite versatile but not really broken per se.

A dire animal of the same cr is going to have more hps and more ab, and damage bonus.

But the one aspect of them thats dangerous is the fact the shaper can choose what he wants each time he summons one.

But lets not forget the basics.

1. each construct gets a set of abilities from the menus ONCE when its summoned-you cannot change those choices each round.
2. Constructs are not thinking creatures, which in its own right is either the worst curse or the best boon.
3. Constructs are not "alive" per se so the issues some classes have with summoning creatures to fight(and die most likely) are not there. Any druid at some point starts to feel bad because his summons keep dying, a psion does not have this issue.
4. It takes an action on the part of the psion to change the constructs current target(just like having a construct to order around) which can cause some issues, each round in combat is valuable time, having to spend a standard action to order a construct to do something can cause some issues.

And my clause about psionics comes into effect once again.

Originally(2e) psionics originated really from the darksun campaign world, and while brutal the world actually warranted the power level of psionics as it was there.
Alot of that "flavor" bled into 3e and 3.5e, while 3.5e is the most streamlined and one of the best systems i have seen for psionics, it still has some powers or abilities that seem over the top. The dm of a psionic based campaign pretty much has to understand it fully and know how brutal he has to be to make it fun for everyone.

Astral constructs, while a new power, has some of the flavor of that origin. They can be brutal, and with a smart player behind them, they are so adaptable its almost unfair. But overall if a psion spends 19 power points to summon a construct im almost happy, in comparison to some of the other things he could have done with 19 power points.

Solates
 

solates said:
4. It takes an action on the part of the psion to change the constructs current target(just like having a construct to order around) which can cause some issues, each round in combat is valuable time, having to spend a standard action to order a construct to do something can cause some issues.

The action required is only a free action, and is not language-dependent.
 

Remove ads

Top