AoO Cleave
- Thread starter FCWesel
- Start date
Ridley's Cohort
First Post
(Wheee!!! Thanks, Mr. Moderator.)
Even in the melee portion of the attack, there are still differences between and normal attack and an AoO. In a normal attack you may target someone with 100% concealment or 90% cover. Can't happen with an AoO.
Actually, cover is yet another peculiar loophole about AoO + Cleave. A target with 50% cover does not provoke an AoO. Yet if I drop a target in the open, I can then use my Cleave on someone behind an arrow slit.
That is indeed how the rules are written, to my distress.
Yes, I see nothing wrong using such things as Trip and Knockdown on an AoO.
A big problem with the feat descriptions is that they are written with normal attack actions in mind. (That is not meant as a criticism of the designers.)
IMHO, the intention of Cleave is to multiply the offense of an attack under certain special circumstances.
A normal attack does not have any restrictions on it. It is natural to suppose the followup Cleave attack has no restrictions on it either.
An AoO has many restrictions on it. It is unnatural to assume the followup Cleave attack has no restrictions on it either. That is no longer multiplying; it is transmuting the attack through a loophole in the rules.
Let me dare an analogy...
To my mind it is like taking a manufacturer's coupon for a free 50 cent candy bar to the corner store. Along the way you pick up a newspaper and find a Double Any Coupon for the same store. Cool, eh? Then you walk up to the counter and demand a candy bar and 50 cents cash. The cashier tells you not to be a dope, the doubled coupon has all the restrictions of the first coupon, no cash out. You can have two candy bars though.
The AoO is the first coupon. The Cleave is the Double Any coupon. I am the voice of that cashier.
Cleave should give you another candy bar, not 50 cents to spend on an any attack you like, as if you were making a normal attack action.
The designer who wrote Cleave just didn't write in a clause that said "Subject to any and all restrictions of the original manufacturer's coupon, and may be subject to other restrictions if you live in the state of AZ, CA, CO, DW, or MN" because that much fine print would be confusing and impractical. Or maybe he didn't think about it.
Even in the melee portion of the attack, there are still differences between and normal attack and an AoO. In a normal attack you may target someone with 100% concealment or 90% cover. Can't happen with an AoO.
Actually, cover is yet another peculiar loophole about AoO + Cleave. A target with 50% cover does not provoke an AoO. Yet if I drop a target in the open, I can then use my Cleave on someone behind an arrow slit.
That is indeed how the rules are written, to my distress.
Yes, I see nothing wrong using such things as Trip and Knockdown on an AoO.
A big problem with the feat descriptions is that they are written with normal attack actions in mind. (That is not meant as a criticism of the designers.)
IMHO, the intention of Cleave is to multiply the offense of an attack under certain special circumstances.
A normal attack does not have any restrictions on it. It is natural to suppose the followup Cleave attack has no restrictions on it either.
An AoO has many restrictions on it. It is unnatural to assume the followup Cleave attack has no restrictions on it either. That is no longer multiplying; it is transmuting the attack through a loophole in the rules.
Let me dare an analogy...
To my mind it is like taking a manufacturer's coupon for a free 50 cent candy bar to the corner store. Along the way you pick up a newspaper and find a Double Any Coupon for the same store. Cool, eh? Then you walk up to the counter and demand a candy bar and 50 cents cash. The cashier tells you not to be a dope, the doubled coupon has all the restrictions of the first coupon, no cash out. You can have two candy bars though.
The AoO is the first coupon. The Cleave is the Double Any coupon. I am the voice of that cashier.
Cleave should give you another candy bar, not 50 cents to spend on an any attack you like, as if you were making a normal attack action.
The designer who wrote Cleave just didn't write in a clause that said "Subject to any and all restrictions of the original manufacturer's coupon, and may be subject to other restrictions if you live in the state of AZ, CA, CO, DW, or MN" because that much fine print would be confusing and impractical. Or maybe he didn't think about it.
