AoO dilemma

[Cyan Wisp]

Hi, folks. I have just started playing in a new group. The other night, the DM ruled something odd - but the others seemed to agree with him.

Scene: Lich, flanked by me and other PC. Lich "casts defensively" but fails his Concentration check. Spell fizzles. Lich then moves away from us, leaving a threatened square...

Me: "He's moving? Too bad for him, er.. it! I'll just roll for my AoO [pick up d20]..."
DM:" No AoO...he took the risk by casting defensively so you don't get an AoO."
Me: "Huh? Wha? ... but he cast defensively. That means he didn't provoke an AoO, so I still have my one AoO for the round! I'll use it for his moving out of a threatened square [shake d20]..."
DM: "That's what he made the check for. He cast defensively. He took the risk of messing up his spell. That is his penalty. He won't also have to deal with an AoO."
PC: [A wizard. Figures.] "...yeah, that's how we've been playing it. Makes sense."
Me: "...but, er, um...[mumble, mumble]. All right, I won't argue. Let's get on with it [drop d20]."

Later, when another spellcaster was in checkmate by the party, I wryly commented: "why don't you just fail a concentration check for casting defensively. Then you can just dance around us with impunity."

DM: "Yeah. I am sure that's how it works. I remember reading it somewhere in the faq or something."

Ok, so who is crazy here? I have searched the faq and the "All About..." articles. I have mined the PHB and even looked in D&D for Dummies! To make it worse, I forgot my character had Combat Reflexes, but hat shouldn't matter for the dilemma at hand.

My questions are these:
1. If a character avoids AoO (by tumbling or casting defensively, etc) does that mean that an opponent then loses their AoO for the round against that character? [I pick "No. Not provoked, so not expended. Still have their AoO to use for another opportunity that may arise. Otherwise you would only need one tumble check/opponent - for the first square you leave."]
2. Is there a RAW answer to this? With reference page, please!

Thank you if decide to help me (or just empathise).

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Your DM and the backing players are incorrect.

Casting a spell provokes an AoO. Moving out of a threatened square provokes an AoO. Casting defensively prevents the first. It does nothing to prevent the second. I'm really not sure how things could be clearer.

I'm not sure what you expect with regard to page references. It's not going to be written down specifically in the rules that "you still provoke an AoO for moving out of a threatened square even if you attempted to cast a spell defensively to avoid an AoO."

Just like it's not going to be written down that "you still provoke an AoO for making a ranged attack even if you tumbled into the square to avoid an AoO."

And so on. Your DM doesn't understand the AoO rules.

 

[Aran Thule]

Assuming it was not just a 5ft step; the movement after the failed casting should provoke an Opportunity attack, this i would judge is seperate from the Opportunity attack you would get if the target had not cast defencively.

However from your description they might be using their version as a house rule, in which case there is not much you can do.
Hope the below quote from the wiki helps.

SRD:Attacks of Opportunity - D&D Wiki
Making an Attack of Opportunity
An attack of opportunity is a single melee attack, and you can only make one per round. You don’t have to make an attack of opportunity if you don’t want to.
-----------
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn’t count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.

 

[Herzog]

First, nobody is crazy. Misguided perhaps, or so used to a houserule they no longer see it as a houserule, but not crazy.

I don't think it is an easy task to find the appropriate reference to disprove your DM. Simply because the generic rules are clear enough (that is to say, on this particular situation) that I don't think they are clarified anywhere.

The point is, casting defensively does not provoke an attack of oppertunity. If it doesn't provoke an AoO, you don't get to make one. If you don't get to make one, you still have your AoO to take later. (explicitly ignoring combat reflexes, because they don't play any role here).

Now, there IS a rule about not provoking multiple AoO for the same action. (only one attack of oppertunity per oppertunity). Should the lich have started by moving out of the threatened hex, he would have provoked an AoO (from both flanking characters). If his movement after that would also have been from a threatened hex, you wouldn't be allowed to make an AoO again (even if you have combat reflexes) because it is considered part of the same 'oppertunity'.

Having said that, the DM and group stating that they have always played it like this gives rise to the 'houserule' question. Do they think this is a reasonable rule? Do you think so? If they insist on using the rule like that, would you agree? If so, there's not really a problem. It doesn't even matter if it's a houserule or not, as long as you're having fun....

 

[Cyan Wisp]

When in Rome...

Thank you very much for your swift responses!

I will try to help the group to see reason. I am a DM too, which is why it irks me when things like this happen. I think I became a DM to, hmm, well to have more control and run games properly.

If they do not succumb to my dissertation, then I will go with the flow. I am a spellcaster, too (a Duskblade). Next time I want to wade through multiple enemies without AoO, I will simply cast a spell first - defensively, then go dancing through them gaily. Onlookers will think I cast "improved sanctuary" or something.

Maybe then, they will see how ludicrous that house rule/misunderstanding is.

Again, thanks for your replies.

 

[irdeggman]

Now, there IS a rule about not provoking multiple AoO for the same action. (only one attack of oppertunity per oppertunity).

You do only get 1 AoO per opportunity but there is no rule that says the same action when performed sequentially can't generate multiple AoO. The only one that is specified as not being allowed is movement. You can only generate 1 AoO (per foe) when moving regardless of the number of threatened squares you vacate.

But you can generate multiple AoO in a single round using the same action. The infamous Combat reflexes/trip scenario comes to mind.

 

[Herzog]

you are right, of course.

I realised my wording wasn't exactly clear, hence the clarification of 'only one attack of oppertunity per oppertunity'.

I now realise I should just have reworded the original sentence.