AoO Headaches...

[WD40]

A recent E-discussion started like this:

Can you disarm a weapon from an attack of opportunity? I got into an argument about this, the DM said you could do this infinite amount of times as long as you don't have the feat for it. Like I attempt a trip attack but don't have improved trip, then the DM decides to sunder my weapon without having the feat. I go back with another trip and he makes a sunder... etc

As is my want.. (after pointing out that one only gets 1 AoO a round, excepting CR, which still does not equal an infinity loop) I answewred with flippant regard for the rules with my personal interpretation:

I would rule that you cannot use an action that provokes an AoO as an AoO. Like an opponent running past you while you are unarmed, and lack the Improved UA Fighting feat. You UA strike will provoke an AoO, and therefore is not an AoO option...

A quick check on the FAQ later, and the opposite becomes true...

Yes. An attack of opportunity is adjudicated just like any other attack, and it is subject to the same rules (including provoking additional attacks of opportunity). This can lead to odd situations where as the reason for the original action no longer exists. --/snippage/-- These attacks are performed in a ?Last In, First Out?
sequence. The last attack of opportunity declared is the first one resolved, with the remaining attacks resolved in reverse order of their declaration,

Persoanlly, I dont agggrw with this... and I said so:

If your combat action provokes an AoO, you cannot use it as an AoO action. I'd justify this by saying that if you're not skilled enough to pull the move off with pinache on your own turn, how can you pull it off when a split-second oppotunity presents itself..

Any other interpretations/opinions out there? Who (if anyone) is right?​

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Well, you can't Sunder on an AoO because Sunder is a standard action all by itself.

However, that being said, you can provoke an AoO with your own AoO. It's even possible to get into an infinite loop situation with this, but it requires an Epic feat.

In short, you're wrong.

In your first situation, your opponent provoked an AoO based on movement. However, since you don't threaten him at the moment (you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike) you can't take an AoO. Therefore, your first example doesn't cause a "loop problem."

 

[Primitive Screwhead]

On a rules board, one would have to agree with this FAQ answer. Nothing in RAW prevents you from using a Trip in place of an AoO attack.
Also nothing prevents that attempted trip to draw an AoO from the person you are tripping.
If you happen to be using a weapon to do so, nothing prevents him from attempting a counter trip...or any other action that can be substituted for a 'normal' attack.

Normally the insanity stops here, as you pointed out only 1 AoO per round. Only when someone in the interplay has Combat relfexes can it go farther..

Last in, First out.. just like the M:tG card game. If his sunder is succesfull, your trip attempt fails.. and he has saved himself.

 

[WD40]

In your first situation, your opponent provoked an AoO based on movement. However, since you don't threaten him at the moment (you don't have Improved Unarmed Strike) you can't take an AoO. Therefore, your first example doesn't cause a "loop problem."

AHA! So thats where I picked that up from.. I guess I'd heard that rule and that example, but misinterpreted it's reasoning and application... My bad...

I'm still gonna stand my my dislike of AoO's provoking AoO's though... beside from not making much sense as I said (If you cant do it when youre planning to, how can you do it on a whim) It just seems to just complex-up the combat.

Plus I'm pictureing two combattants both sorta doing that kinda dance you do with people in a shopping centre, when you both step in the same direction to avoid bumping into eachother:
"I get a shot..."
"No wait.. it's my turn..."
"Hang on, I'll just get the angle right..."
"Waitaminitue.. I'll just shift over here.. now come at me like you're holding a knife..."

SeewhatImean?

 

[Infiniti2000]

I agree with Patryn except for the following, but it's a well-known debate and I won't get into it unless forced.

Well, you can't Sunder on an AoO because Sunder is a standard action all by itself.

 

[Infiniti2000]

SeewhatImean?

Not really. Excessive attacks of opportunity are EXTREMELY unlikely. It requires both parties to have combat reflexes, a high Dex, and take actions that provoke attacks of opportunity. You'll only have such a situation in a specifically contrived case. So, houseruling this away will be for no reason whatsoever.

 

[WD40]

Not really. Excessive attacks of opportunity are EXTREMELY unlikely. It requires both parties to have combat reflexes, a high Dex, and take actions that provoke attacks of opportunity. You'll only have such a situation in a specifically contrived case. So, houseruling this away will be for no reason whatsoever.

You're quite right, I guess I have a habit of overeacting when things trip up my interpretations like this...

I agree with Patryn except for the following, but it's a well-known debate and I won't get into it unless forced.

Is there already a thread on that? Could I trouble you for a link?

 

[Hypersmurf]

Not really. Excessive attacks of opportunity are EXTREMELY unlikely. It requires both parties to have combat reflexes, a high Dex, and take actions that provoke attacks of opportunity. You'll only have such a situation in a specifically contrived case. So, houseruling this away will be for no reason whatsoever.

I've always liked the Epic Combat Reflexes Infinite Disarm Duel.

A million disarm and counter-disarm attempts until one finally succeeds... and it all happens in under six seconds!

-Hyp.

 

[BWP]

Do you have a relevant rules quote to disprove the statement in the FAQ, or do you just have a different opinion? If you want to know who's "right" for the game you run, the answer is "you", of course. If you want to know who's "right" in the sense of "conforming to the printed rules", then that would be the FAQ.

 

[Patryn of Elvenshae]

Plus I'm pictureing two combattants both going sorta doing that kinda dance you do with people in a shopping centre, when you both step in the same direction to avoid bumping into eachother:
"I get a shot..."
"No wait.. it's my turn..."
"Hang on, I'll just get the angle right..."
"Waitaminitue.. I'll just shift over here.. now come at me like you're holding a knife..."

SeewhatImean?

Yes ....

But I think, if you describe it better, it works.

Take someone without Improved Unarmed Strike, wielding a dagger, in combat with someone without Improved Trip who is not wielding a tripping weapon.

You could describe it as:

"I make an unarmed attack, which provokes."
"Well, I try to trip you first."
"Well, then, I'll stab you with my dagger first. *roll* I do three damage."
"*roll* I trip you."
"*roll* I hit you with my unarmed strike, and do two damage."

Or, you could describe it as:

"Regdar throws an unpracticed punch at Jozan, who reaches out and grabs Regdar's arm, attempting to throw him to the ground. They wrestle briefly, and Regdar draws his dagger across Jozan's arm, leaving a line of red, but it's not enough - Jozan slips a leg inbetween Regdar's and twists, sending the warrior to the ground. As he falls, Regdar's boot snaps up, catching Jozan in the gut, partially knocking the wind out of him."