[APG] Summoner Still Worth Taking?

[Kaisoku]

Yeah, it's kinda like how the Thaumaturgist was a really good summoner by being able to have a planar ally as a cohort. It's always there, but the reason it's there is because he summoned it.

You could all it the "perfect" summons, since it's unlimited in duration.

 

[Starbuck_II]

It's still a very powerful class - a ninth level summoner with an 18 CHA could (with maximum rolls) drop 35 Lantern Archons down into the middle of your carefully prepared scenario. Hard to argue against the potential effectiveness of such a tactic. On the other hand, that assumes maximum rolls, that the Summoner isn't doing anything but spamming critters, and that the bad guys in your (carefully prepared) scenario aren't doing anything to stop him.

You do realize that one nerf was Summon Monster spells are limited to 1 at a time (Eodolon counts for that).

Remember SM only grants 1d4+1 at one casting.
So you can't spam it.

 

[Maidhc O Casain]

You do realize that one nerf was Summon Monster spells are limited to 1 at a time (Eodolon counts for that).

Remember SM only grants 1d4+1 at one casting.
So you can't spam it.

And now I feel a WHOLE lot better about it! I didn't realize this - thanks for pointing it out to me!

(I did realize that you couldn't have your Eidolon active at the same time as the Summon, but not that you could only have one Summon active at a time).

 

[humble minion]

I can't really help but wonder if giving the summoner both the eidolon and summon spells was a mistake. They work on different 'paradigms' of summoning, if you like. The eidolon reflects a deep involvement of the summoner with a particular individual creature, and a relationship that grows over time, while summon monster spells are much more 'temporary weaponising of the Bestiary', with a more throwaway attitude of the caster to his summons (especially since afaik the in PF summoned creature still doesn't REALLY die if slain while summoned).

I can certainly understand all the practical reasons why Paizo didn't want to do two summoner classes (one that does 'pets' and one that does 'expendable assets'), but I think it might have been a better solution than the half-and-half course they've taken. I'd even go so far as to wonder whether summon monster itself is a bit of a sacred cow that could be beneficially slaughtered. It's always been pretty problematic in my personal opinion - both from a gameplay point of view where it can slow things down horribly, and from an IC conceptual/worldbuilding point of view when you run into all sorts of problems with explaining where these creatures come from and what happens on their home plane while they're away being summoned, whether they remember what happened while they were summoned, what happens if they die while summoned, whether you can summon specific creatures, etc etc etc. Personally I think Paizo might have been better dumping the whole 'summon monster spell' way of doing things for PF and going with longer-term pets, but that's the old compatibility argument rearing its ugly again I suppose.

 

[Kaisoku]

To be honest, when I first heard that there was going to be a Summoner class, I was more expecting abilities along the lines of magical effects dispensed by summoned creatures.
Sort of like Final Fantasy summoning, calling Ifrit to lay down fire over your enemies... or Carbuncle to stick around and magically protect your allies, etc.

This would have made for a different idea than just "summon monster <blah>" or the cohort mechanic that is the eidolon. Oh well...

 

[Volaran]

You do realize that one nerf was Summon Monster spells are limited to 1 at a time (Eodolon counts for that).

Remember SM only grants 1d4+1 at one casting.
So you can't spam it.

Remember that this only applies to the Eidolon itself, as well as the Summoner's Summon Monster spell-like ability, which is measured in minutes.

The Summoner still has the option of taking Summon Monster I, II, IV, V, VII and IX as normal spells from their spell list (with the rounds/level duration), and could field a large number of creatures that way.

That said, Mowgli's example still was not valid for the reasons you mentioned.

 

[pawsplay]

It's sort of a "magical pet" class, since you can choose how your eidolon appears. You could have Puff the Magic Dragon as an Eidolon.

 

[Starbuck_II]

worldbuilding point of view when you run into all sorts of problems with explaining where these creatures come from and what happens on their home plane while they're away being summoned

Um, D&D explains that. You don't summon the actual creature but false replica of them.

, whether they remember what happened while they were summoned, what happens if they die while summoned, whether you can summon specific creatures, etc etc etc. Personally I think Paizo might have been better dumping the whole 'summon monster spell' way of doing things for PF and going with longer-term pets, but that's the old compatibility argument rearing its ugly again I suppose.

If they die, they are unharmed.
Summoning Specfic creatures is a variant rule.

Did you not read your PHB in 3.5 where this was all explained?

 

[humble minion]

Um, D&D explains that. You don't summon the actual creature but false replica of them.


If they die, they are unharmed.
Summoning Specfic creatures is a variant rule.

Did you not read your PHB in 3.5 where this was all explained?

I did. I even read the variants in Unearthed Arcana etc. But I still find it a deeply unsatisfying explanation, and one that is far too obviously a cobbled-together after-the-fact justification for a game mechanic.

Where does this 'false replica' come from? From the Elemental Plane of False Replicas, or are they created from whole cloth? If the latter, doesn't it imply that summoning is actually creation rather than summoning? Why invent this false replica stuff when the creatures are already out there ready to be summoned? Can a summoned false replica answer questions? What does it know?

The false replica stuff just strikes me as sophistry, to be honest, and sophistry that stretches the internal logic of the implied setting/world to breaking point. Sure it's a D&D sacred cow, but there's got to be a better game mechanical way to handle the literary/mythological 'demon summoner' etc archetype

 

[pawsplay]

Summoned monsters are... vestiges! Yeah, that's the ticket.