[APG] Summoner Still Worth Taking?

[pawsplay]

Um, D&D explains that. You don't summon the actual creature but false replica of them.

Amusingly enough, AD&D informed us in the Monster Summoning spell that adventurers have occasionally found themselves being summoned by otherplanar casters.

 

[Alzrius]

I did. I even read the variants in Unearthed Arcana etc. But I still find it a deeply unsatisfying explanation, and one that is far too obviously a cobbled-together after-the-fact justification for a game mechanic.

Where does this 'false replica' come from? From the Elemental Plane of False Replicas, or are they created from whole cloth? If the latter, doesn't it imply that summoning is actually creation rather than summoning? Why invent this false replica stuff when the creatures are already out there ready to be summoned? Can a summoned false replica answer questions? What does it know?

The false replica stuff just strikes me as sophistry, to be honest, and sophistry that stretches the internal logic of the implied setting/world to breaking point. Sure it's a D&D sacred cow, but there's got to be a better game mechanical way to handle the literary/mythological 'demon summoner' etc archetype

I always liked the explanation given in The Practical Enchanter, a free supplement for v.3.5.

Classically, Summoning effects open a gate to an outer plane or other distant location, locate an example of a specified type of creature there, drag it through the gateway, infallibly bind it to obedience, and then send it away again when the spell is complete, despite any intervening dimensional barriers, no matter how powerful.

This seems like a bit much to ask of a first level spell.

In general, we recommend that Summoning spells produce constructs temporarily ensouled by summoned spirits. Summoned entities thus cannot truly die, are bound to limited obedience by constraints built into the body, and cannot bring items or carry them away. They cannot teleport or plane shift unless they are capable of teleporting others along with themselves since the constructed body is not truly a part of them. Similarly, once the body vanishes the spirit departs automatically unless blocked by magic which can affect pure spirits. Finally, since they do not have a true body to anchor their end of the link, they cannot summon other creatures; they would simply be pulled back through themselves.

Any severed parts of a summoned creature will thus vanish as well, neatly eliminating ichor stains and most traces, as well as eliminating any infections, curse of lycanthropy, or similar conditions they would otherwise leave behind.

 

[Olive]

there's got to be a better game mechanical way to handle the literary/mythological 'demon summoner' etc archetype

There is: Planar Binding spells.

The Summon Monster spells aren't replicating that archetype.

 

[Jhaelen]

It's sort of a "magical pet" class, since you can choose how your eidolon appears.

Yup. It's shamelessly stolen from MMOs, i.e. totally video-gamey!

 

[mxyzplk]

Eek, if you played a 3.5e summoner and it wasn't powerful you weren't trying real hard. I played one that was hell on wheels. Google "Treantmonk" if you want the optimization guide.

I do like the idea of a pet class beyond the "animal pets" we already have - it's a style of play some folks like. Also, as pointed out, the "nerf" of eidolon and no eidolon and SMs at the same time aren't that bad -

1. You can still take SM spells and cast them while the eidolon's out, so if you want to generate an army you can

2. Most complaints about the eidolon assume it's the entirety of the character, and not part of a character's abilities that also includes not-insignificant spellcasting.

When rolling out new classes and powers, it's fine to "go weak" - all the min-maxers out there will find a way to amp it up, never fear.

 

[Walking Dad]

To be honest, when I first heard that there was going to be a Summoner class, I was more expecting abilities along the lines of magical effects dispensed by summoned creatures.
Sort of like Final Fantasy summoning, calling Ifrit to lay down fire over your enemies... or Carbuncle to stick around and magically protect your allies, etc.

This would have made for a different idea than just "summon monster <blah>" or the cohort mechanic that is the eidolon. Oh well...

I would suggest to play just the magic class you like and ask the DM to allow the 'creatures doing it' thing as fluff.

 

[Psion]

Eek, if you played a 3.5e summoner and it wasn't powerful you weren't trying real hard.

Indeed. I had a major villain over the course of the campaign which showed how nasty a summoner could be.

When rolling out new classes and powers, it's fine to "go weak" - all the min-maxers out there will find a way to amp it up, never fear.

Oooh, I don't know about that. Online, optimization is all that gets talked about, but IME, the bulk of normal players aren't highly efficient optimizers, and it stinks having a PC hobble the party because the "trick" to the class isn't obvious. Psychic Warrior under 3.5 seemed to be an example of a class with this syndrome.

 

[renau1g]

Yeah I agree about the optimizers, they also likely represent a small subset of players. In my RL group one of the guys thought he was a badass optimizer and used to joke about how powerful his PC was. It always made me laugh because seeing some of the stuff around his was only marginally more powerful than a non-optimized class.

 

[Otakkun]

First of all, sorry for the necro here, but I'm really interested in running some thoughts about the pathfinder class with you guys.

Right now I'm planning to play a halfling summoner (combat mount theme) from level 1 at the living pathfinder forum, and from what I've read from the APG, the summoner seems like a nice class to play during lower levels, but loses most of its interest once you hit levels 8+ (where I would rather play a sorcerer to do the summonings plus other stuff).

Does anyone have gaming hours under his belt with the summoner class? Care to share your experience?

As a sidenote, the inquisitor class from APG really looks amazing.

 

[Theroc]

No experience yet, but I will be participating in a starting level 10 game using PF and I chose a summoner. It seems a lot more stuff to worry about in initial character creation. (I'm used to non-casters, so it's "Stats->Feats->Gear" With the summoner it's "Stats->Feats->Spells->Gear->Eidolon->Eidolon's evolutions/gear")