Apotheosis and clergy -- what would you do?

[Dakkareth]

I would think, that a being trying to ascend by converting enough people to its cause would find ways to make it worthwhile for its clerics. As high level spellcaster it could research spells to match the gifts of true gods for its followers - some epic spell to watch over them and help them out in whatever way seems appropriate. Also direct 'divine' intervention would be much more frequent, especially if lots of people are watching - this kind of action has great potential for conversion.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Really, what is the problem with giving full cleric powers - certainly not a balance issue - the class is the class. And this IS a being of at least semi-divine power. Perhaps this is how all dieties get started...

Well, lots of deities in my campaign, anyway. The problem I have with giving out powers is simple -- I have a well-defined heirarchy of divine power whioch is important to the setting. The ha-naga is allowed to directly influence mortal affairs because the gods don't consider it a god, but if it could grant spells, they'd think of it as a god and consider its competition on the Material unwelcome, at best.

 

[devilish]

How did this turn out?

Well, lots of deities in my campaign, anyway. The problem I have with giving out powers is simple -- I have a well-defined heirarchy of divine power whioch is important to the setting. The ha-naga is allowed to directly influence mortal affairs because the gods don't consider it a god, but if it could grant spells, they'd think of it as a god and consider its competition on the Material unwelcome, at best.

I see this last post was almost a year ago. How did this turn out?
I have a similar situation -- a cleric is plane-shifted away from
his deities and is rounding up worshippers (aka a cult, in the eyes
of the current world). When do they "cross-over".

-D

 

[Arcane Runes Press]

Hmm.... should have looked at the dates first.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I see this last post was almost a year ago. How did this turn out?
I have a similar situation -- a cleric is plane-shifted away from
his deities and is rounding up worshippers (aka a cult, in the eyes
of the current world). When do they "cross-over".

It worked reasonably, but I always felt I was walking a fine line. I managed to make up for the character's weakness by having (quasi-)divine intervention happen from time to time. This actually didn't pose a balance issue per se, since the god was pretty selfish and only helped as he saw fit. (Example: party in melee with powerful foes, cleric dies in round 1. Ha-naga teleports in, grabs cleric and leaves -- other PCs are left to fight w/o further help!)

Situations like this are a lot of work for the DM, but they're also what makes D&D so much better, IMO, than games with less interactivity.

What's your situation like? I might be able to provide more specific advice, if you'd like it.

 

[devilish]

It worked reasonably, but I always felt I was walking a fine line. I managed to make up for the character's weakness by having (quasi-)divine intervention happen from time to time. This actually didn't pose a balance issue per se, since the god was pretty selfish and only helped as he saw fit. (Example: party in melee with powerful foes, cleric dies in round 1. Ha-naga teleports in, grabs cleric and leaves -- other PCs are left to fight w/o further help!)

Situations like this are a lot of work for the DM, but they're also what makes D&D so much better, IMO, than games with less interactivity.

What's your situation like? I might be able to provide more specific advice, if you'd like it.

Well, I've painted myself in a corner, DM-wise. Players are 1st level --
find themselves on a new plane detached from their home (now
in Valus. ) Cleric worships Norse as a pantheon but is cut off from
his deities.

I was thinking that he only has access to 1-2nd level spells because
of the detachment - not a problem at first level, but definitely puts
pressure on finding a way out later. He's starting to convert the
populace and, for now, I'm letting the Valus gods ignore it.

I was wondering, if I treated the Norse pantheon as a cult, what would
happen if, say, he got 200 worshippers. Would that be enough to
"punch a hole through" or instantiate a demi-god representation/avatar
of Odin. If so, what spells could the cleric get. Conversely, he
might think "hmmm....only 1000(x?) more worshippers and I'll get
5th level spells and get out of here....." But if they decide to
stay, this would make a great epic-level campaign on world conversion.

In reading through some posts, it seems like the 1st-2nd level spell
limitation is a 2nd edition rule --- that in 3rd, if you worship a pantheon or
a belief-system, that you can earn up to 9th. (Yawn! )
My way is mega-interesting!

So, was just wondering, before I can take a look at worship points,
what to do with this poor cleric.

Many thanks in advance!

 

[devilish]

Bump?

 

[fafhrd]

I'd think an epic level caster would be able to come up with a nice epic variation on the imbue x with spell ability concept. It would go a nice long way to putting the religion on its feet.

 

[CRGreathouse]

I was thinking that he only has access to 1-2nd level spells because of the detachment - not a problem at first level, but definitely puts
pressure on finding a way out later. He's starting to convert the
populace and, for now, I'm letting the Valus gods ignore it.

I was wondering, if I treated the Norse pantheon as a cult, what would
happen if, say, he got 200 worshippers. Would that be enough to
"punch a hole through" or instantiate a demi-god representation/avatar
of Odin. If so, what spells could the cleric get. Conversely, he
might think "hmmm....only 1000(x?) more worshippers and I'll get
5th level spells and get out of here....." But if they decide to
stay, this would make a great epic-level campaign on world conversion.

In reading through some posts, it seems like the 1st-2nd level spell
limitation is a 2nd edition rule --- that in 3rd, if you worship a pantheon or
a belief-system, that you can earn up to 9th. (Yawn! )
My way is mega-interesting!

I think that the idea of converting people in the new plane has merit and that all reasonable care should be taken to allow this to continue.

I'd try to make it clear that this is really what Odin wants -- perhaps he has some special reason to value this plane, or perhaps this is just a good opportunity to expand.

For the time being, I'd let him cast spells on the basis of being granted spells by some deity/group of deities/pantheon that finds him 'similar enough' to give him some measure of power. Of course, as he grows in power he could be perceived as a threat (suddenly hostile NPC clerics show up), or as a target for conversion away from Odin (suddenly extra-friendly NPC clerics show up).

Perhaps if he is granted (low-level) spells from a group of deities, some will take one method and others another. ("Hey! Flowers from clerics of Ehlonna and chocolates from... Wee Jas? Shoot, Hextor's clergy just showed up!")

Personally, I'd stay away from the 2E description (low-level spells are just ritual), because I think it's boring and saps the difference between arcane and divine magic. I'd perfer something more exotic: local deities helping/courting/not realizing/pretending to be Odin, or a tenuous connection across the planes that allows the character, and only the character, to cast spells of up to level X from Odin, or something similar.

What does the PC think of the situation?