Appeal of the defender?

[Irda Ranger]

Why? Just let them play the classes they want, then design adventures and scenarios that play to their strengths. Don't worry about "teaching" them anything. Just make the game fun for them.

I think you misunderstand his question. He's not asking "How do I trick my players into playing a Fighter", he's asking "How can I help them appreciate the important part Defenders play in a group."

The fact is that armed force just doesn't work well without an Aegis. Modern armies have tanks and the Romans had their Legionnaires. The Defender role is important. There's nothing wrong with helping some people realize that.

 

[Dausuul]

I think you misunderstand his question. He's not asking "How do I trick my players into playing a Fighter", he's asking "How can I help them appreciate the important part Defenders play in a group."

The fact is that armed force just doesn't work well without an Aegis. Modern armies have tanks and the Romans had their Legionnaires. The Defender role is important. There's nothing wrong with helping some people realize that.

My question is... if nobody in the group is playing a Defender or wants to, why bother?

 

[hong]

My question is... if nobody in the group is playing a Defender or wants to, why bother?

Well, there's something to be said for approaching all the bits and pieces of a new ruleset with an open mind.

 

[Mal Malenkirk]

I'd just design an adventure where the main opposition is another team of adventurer of the same level. One, of course, that is well rounded and has a defender.

No need for TPK, the rules for dying of 4e seems looses and you can easily defeat the party without killing them if the other adventurers aren't evil as such. In fact, it's better if there can be a few rematches.

This scenario will provide with either two outcomes. Either your players will win consistantly and prove that they don't need a defender, or they'll get their ass kicked more often than not and will see first hand the cool things a defender can do on a battlefield.

Just be sure that you play to win with sensible tactics or it will be counterproductive.

 

[Andor]

If you're going to keep feeding them NPC defenders, stop making them secondary characters. I'm not suggesting you hand them a party level +5 DMNPC, but give them a real full share, votes his mind party member who pulls his weight and then some.

Let me tell you about the most fun "defender" style character I've played in 3e. He's Devon the Bronze Knight. He's a Knight 1/Bronze Dragon Shaman X. He fights in full plate with sword and board. The Improved shield bash and Agile shield fighter feats let him keep up the damage, while maxing out his AC. He usually keeps up the Energy Shield aura in a fight unless a PC gets badly damaged when he'll switch to healing. He also likes to keep up the energy shield while traveling for the "bug zapper" effect. Between the Energy aura causing foes to take damage with each blow they land and his own combat skills he lags behind no one in damage output. And his ability to breath underwater was the sole factor that allowed our party to escape from an evil cult at one point.

Style wise Devon was a riot. He wore brightly polished bronzed armour and was an absolutely forthright and bold warrior. When the rogue wanted to sneak into the bad guys camp Devon distracted them by riding up and demanding their surrender. He'd challange the biggest baddy any time any place. He kept the party alive, and we stilll talk about how much fun he was. He was nobodies chump.

 

[Zelc]

My favorite defender in 3.5 is the Stand Still - Thicket of Blades reach fighter. Once you get in his reach, You. Can. Not. Move. It's like a mobile Solid Fog + Web combination that can dish out some pain.

Oh, and have fun trying to cast spells with Mage Slayer .

 

[Victim]

You know, I had heard that before I played the demo... but my fighter was by far the most valuable character (and not just IMO). The other players commented on how my character (The dwarf fighter) did on average the best damage and got the most kills. Maybe it was the dice or the tactics used (I held the middle of the battle field as best as I could), but I went home being a serious proponent of the defender (I've always preferred controllers and strikers).

Without having played the demo, I'd have to agree. The ranger's damage lead, while noticeable thanks to Hunter's Quarry, doesn't seem particularly dramatic with the updated version of Careful Shot. The fighter is throwing down d10+5 on her attacks, and attacks at equal or higher bonuses compared to the strikers.

And that's a weapon/shield fighter with more CON than STR.

 

[Sashi]

The benefit of being a defender is being hale and hearty enough to shrug off attacks that would have killed other party members, and taking those hits so the rest of the party stays alive.

What 4E is doing is allowing you to accomplish that role in an ACTIVE rather than PASSIVE manner, which lets everyone else see and appreciate what you're doing.

 

[Nahat Anoj]

I think you misunderstand his question. He's not asking "How do I trick my players into playing a Fighter", he's asking "How can I help them appreciate the important part Defenders play in a group."

The fact is that armed force just doesn't work well without an Aegis. Modern armies have tanks and the Romans had their Legionnaires. The Defender role is important. There's nothing wrong with helping some people realize that.

Oh, I totally believe the Defender role is important, useful, and fun. But honestly, if the players don't think Defenders are important or useful, I think the OP would be better served just to make scenarios and situations where needing a Defender isn't so important.

 

[robertliguori]

I think you misunderstand his question. He's not asking "How do I trick my players into playing a Fighter", he's asking "How can I help them appreciate the important part Defenders play in a group."

The fact is that armed force just doesn't work well without an Aegis. Modern armies have tanks and the Romans had their Legionnaires. The Defender role is important. There's nothing wrong with helping some people realize that.

Mind you, Blaster, Blaster, Blaster, Blaster and Controller (Area Damage) seems to be quite viable, too. Armored infantry are invaluable for taking and holding territory, but if you simply want to kill everything you meet before it can kill you, you want artillery and air support. Playing chess on the battlefield is only helpful if your opponent isn't playing Unreal Tournament.

Though, such a party pretty much would rely totally on tactics, surprise, and initative. If a counter-party that was heavy on the defenders and close-strikers got up and within them, badness would ensue.