April 17, rule of 3

Light simple weapons: d4; daggers, sickles, unarned
Medium simple weapons: d6; clubs, maces, shortspears
Heavy simple weapons: d8; greatclubs, staves, longspears
Light martial weapons: d8; light hammers, handaxes, shortswords
Medium martial weapons: d10; longswords, battleaxes, war hammers
Heavy martial weapons: d12; greatswords, greataxes, scythes

I'd actually hope we see a 'flattening' of damage die, in addition to the flattening of the attack curve that it appears we are getting. So my preference would be to strip off the high and low dice from the chart, and just go with weapons that do d6, d8 & d10.

Reason being... it's much more difficult to balance characters who do d4 damage against ones who do d12. 4E does it by assuming the d4 wielder (the rogue) is going to be adding his Sneak Attack damage to most attacks, plus gain the 18-20 crit range of the Daggermaster PP... but if you strip away the extra rogue damage... those d4 weapons end up being traps for other characters that should practically never get taken. Especially considering having proficiency in d12 weapons thus far has been pretty standard for a whole heap of classes, without even requiring feats to be used.

I think we'd be fine with one-handed light weapons being d6s, one-handed heavy weapons being d8s, and two-handed weapons being d10s. Then layering the 'special properties' on top of them to differentiate the different weapons groups... Damage Type, Accurate, Brutal, High Crit, Defensive, Tripping, Reach, etc. etc. It would help keep all classes within striking distance of each other in terms of damage (pun intended).
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Careful. You'll be accused of using the Oberoni fallacy with that sort of thinking. Or of being forced to play a particular style.

There's a slight difference though. Pemerton is talking about one way, among many of using the rules. Another tool in the chest so to speak.

He isn't talking about spackling up the failures of a system by forcing every single scenario into the same box.

One should not lose sight of the larger picture.

There's nothing wrong with spreading the love around away from the specialist character. So long as that's not the only way you can make adventures work because, otherwise, the specialist character just walks all over everything within his specialty while the non-specialist characters are so far behind the curve that they cannot meaningfully contribute.

One should not have to be a 10th level fighter in order to have enough skill ranks to make a barely competent ship captain after all.
 

You could just have sharp and blunt. For simplicity.

Or to be really simple we could use the single damage type "hurt.":heh:

Or not. The English language is suffering enough these days, we don't need to add to her pain by dumbing down material which is by and large the playground for an intelligent and literate group of people.

No offense, if English is not your first language (and glancing at your location I'll guess it's not) then I am fully aware the irregularities and odd spelling of English can be a nightmare. But to suggest that we need to change the accepted, understood, evocative, concrete and technically and grammatically correct terms used in the game to make things very slightly simpler is not something I'm going to get behind. If a term confuses you, look it up, just like I do when reading something in another language. If it translates poorly then have a chat with the localization team to suggest better terminology for the translated edition.

If you think the number of damage types should be reduced from a gameplay standpoint, then that's a different matter, but that's not what I gathered from your post.
 

I have to extremely strongly disagree with the notion that creativity and power-building are mutually opposed concepts. I happen to think that NOT power-building is being uncreative.
Sure, the guys who actually go and come up with the stuff to begin with are very creative, and highly intelligent. Two factors I want to see stay in the D&D audience. Thing in, much like people who NetDeck in MTG circles, follwing CharOp instructions is not hard, it is not creative. It's no more creative than following the instructions on an Ikea desk.

Anyone can slap together random stats or lazily apply stats with little thought put into it, but it takes a LOT of creative energy to find the 'perfect' set of stats for (what you envision to be) the 'perfect' character.
I've CharOp'ed before, mostly because I was in games with more than two power-players already(that in my experience seems to be the most any game can handle). Sure, some CharOping is highly creative because it's trying to figure out how to even be effective in a general sense with a unique idea. But this is more a result of the fact that in D&D, the game is designed to make certain choices more favorable than others, like how you get a +2 proficiency with some weapons, and a +3 with others, even though there are no other bonuses for using that +2 weapon.

This, IMO, is a major design flaw, and is one of the leading causes of CharOping. If wanting to feel cool is always going to make you statistically less effective, then people are going to favor being effective over cool. Either the two need to come together(such as weapon tiers instead of individual weapon stats, getting rid of variable proficiency numbers, math tax feats, etc..) or being "cool" needs to be just as effective as being "effective"(which would effectively eliminate the need for the latter.)

In my view, if you don't want character optimisation in one dimension, the game should be designed so as not to reward it.
I don't think that's a design D&D can ever achieve, as long as things need to get hit and be avoided...

There are multiple ways to do this. One well-known option is to put mechanical burdens on all stats, for example, so that dumpign one stat will weaken the PC.
True, but I think it's a fairly unrealistic burden and would inevitably just punish players for something they can't achieve no matter what. You're gonna get a bad roll eventually. I would agree that all classes should derive some tangible benefit from every stat. But each class should emphasize only three of them as core. IE:
Melee get their primary bonuses from Str, Dex, Con.
Casters get their primary bonuses from Int, Wis, Cha(in descending order defined by the class in question).
Hybrids(Paladin's, Bards, Druids, ect..) would have a mix, such as Str, Dex, Int; Dex, Wis, Cha, etc...

I think it's realistic that players can pull out three good stats with most stat-generation methods. While benefits would be gained from having stats outside your primary triad, you wouldn't be punished for lacking those numbers, as the game knows probability is against you in having good stats in 5+/6 stats.

Problematically, we'd have to develop some serious benefits for melee classes picking up mental stats. A Wizard with a 16 str and a 14 dex and a 14 con, is going to get 100% of the benefits that melee also get from those scores, in addition to their extra SPD, higher spell limits, and so on from their mental stats. A Fighter with a 16 int, 14 wis, and 14 con is going to(as the game stands now) get some minor bonuses to skills, but that's about it. So melee classes either need to get double bonuses from their physical stats or they need some kind of new feature to get from mental scores.

[begin thinking out loud]
Given the power of Bo9S classes, the love for combat maneuvers among players, perhaps mental stats would determine the number and effectivness of combat maneuvers. Still, I think requiring 4 or more good stats is pushing at the edges of probability.

A less-frequently discussed approach, but in my view just as important, involves encounter design and adjudication. If a GM runs encounters in such a way that players who aren't optimised for a particular activity nevertheless have a good reason to get their PCs involved in that sort of activity, the effect of optimisation will be reduced.

A simple example of this involves the idea of the "face" PC. If the GM doesn't want the party face blitzing through all the social encounters, then the GM needs to design encounters that give the players of the other PCs a reason to get their PCs involved in social activity - for examle, NPCs try to talk to them, and will leave their PCs looking stupid (or otherwise suffering some detriment to their fictional position) if those non-face PCs don't start talking.
I agree, and I do this in my own games. My encounters becomes more and more tailored as the campaign goes on to what the PC's can do within the realm of what I need them to do. I even adjust things in the middle of encounters(I have very fudgy math).

Conversely, the approach to optimisation and "having a go" which says "let's ignore pushing the mechanics hard, and play as if the mechanics weren't what they are" doesn't do much for me at all. What's the point of having action resolution mechanics, and PC build mechanics, if the players aren't expected to use them?

(And to be clear: I'm not talking here about unexpected and overpowered synergies that are the inevitable result of long lists of complex game elements. The solution to these is gentlemen's agreements, house rules and/or errata. I'm talking about whether or not players are allowed to take the central mechanics of the game out for a thorough spin.)
After reading some discussion on other threads about giving out free math feats(within reason), I've been considering doing so in my upcoming game as a way to allow players to be "good" while focusing their character design on what they want to do instead of what they have to do.
 

After reading some discussion on other threads about giving out free math feats(within reason), I've been considering doing so in my upcoming game as a way to allow players to be "good" while focusing their character design on what they want to do instead of what they have to do.

Check the link in my sig.
 

Problematically, we'd have to develop some serious benefits for melee classes picking up mental stats.
Wisdom is a pretty good stat for a 4e fighter.

Careful. You'll be accused of using the Oberoni fallacy with that sort of thinking. Or of being forced to play a particular style.
I'll take the risk.

I also think there is a bigger issue here.

Scenario design based on timed threats, restocking dungeons, wandering monsters etc shifts the focus of the story to those elements under the GM's control.

Conflict framing and adjudication based on putting into play stakes that all the players care about, and that engage all the PCs, shifts the focuse of the story to those elements under the players' control.

For me, this assymetry between GMing techniques is pretty important, and is not orthogonal to the bigger question of "what is the point of and pleasure in RPGing".
 

Wisdom is a pretty good stat for a 4e fighter
.

Sorta, but that's still within that "stat triad", Wisdom is important because of the way 4e "powers" function similar to spells. Wisdom provides some of those more controllery aspects for a fighter, push, slide, etc...
 

I have perused the charop boards from time to time. Not often. But, if I'm making a new character with a class I've never used before, I'll poke my nose through some of the guides on the WOTC boards. Not because I want to make the best character, but, because you can often find some pretty decent themed characters in there.

You want to make a polearm warlord? Here's how you do it.

Not such a bad thing. Most of what I've seen of the compiled guides isn't on how to break the game but rather on how to make a character that is good to better than good (but not overpowered) based on a specific theme.

I certainly don't view it as building instructions for my character. Then again, the mechanics of my character aren't the important bits about what makes my character something I want to play. Sethalarmis, chosen preacher of Kord, who met an avatar of Kord after partaking of some strange spotted mushrooms, now seeks to build his altar to Kord in a place where he can straighten crooked men and tighten loose women.

Mechanically? He's a 4e rogue with a bit of multiclass cleric thrown in.
 

Sethalarmis, chosen preacher of Kord

<snip>

Mechanically? He's a 4e rogue with a bit of multiclass cleric thrown in.
The PC in my game who is on a holy mission from Erathis, Ioun (and perhaps Vecna) to restore the empire of Nerath on a sound foundation of wisdom and learning: mechanically, a wizard multi-class invoker and paragon path Divine Philosopher.

The PC in my game who is a warpriest of Moradin: mechanically, a polearm fighter with multi-class cleric and paragon path Warpriet.

4e is good at this sort of thing.
 

Yes, but, blunting damage doesn't really work does it? You have slashing, piercing, and blunt. Larry, Curly and Shemp?

It rolls off the tongue better to have all three as gerunds.

At least, I'll bet that's how the discussion at the marketing table went.

What about "bashing" damage?
 

Remove ads

Top