April 3rd, Rule of 3

It's not an issue of more or less realism. No edition of D&D (not even first-ed AD&D, although it has the strictest rules for recovery from negative hp, and for natural healing) requires mundane healing to take anything like a realistic amount of time, nor impose anything like a reaslistic amount of impairment, if that natural healing meant natural recovery from massive physical injury like being impaled through the lung by a spear.

It therefore follows that no edition of D&D has had mechanics that result in PCs suffering such injuries in combat (some magic swords being an exception).

Or perhaps it follows that off screen wound care involves prayer based healing rituals that are too slow and disruptable to be used in combat, but which allow for the healing of grevious injuries. Or maybe everyone in D&D knows magical/psionic disciplines that allow flawless wound recovery. But again, not combat usable and therefore not mentioned by the system. Fluff can be written as desired. It does not require chucking out the concept of grevious but sub-lethal damage.

D&D damage is, and always has been abstract. We don't track hit locations, blood loss, scaring, long term impairment or short term impairment.

There are many game systems, as you note, that do. Almost all of us have tried them from time to time. And I can point out one universal truth about these systems. They are all massively less popular than D&D. By orders of magnitude. Gritty realism and medical detail are fine in theory but tend to bog down in play. Look at rolemaster with it's scores of healing spells. Bleh.

For 5e they need to have a few dial settings for the damage/healing systems. Ideally to allow one to dial the resource management from tactical to strategic and the realism from gritty to cinematic. Then we can all complain about how our GMs are using the wrong options, instead of how the system failed us. ;)
 

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And I can point out one universal truth about these systems. They are all massively less popular than D&D. By orders of magnitude. Gritty realism and medical detail are fine in theory but tend to bog down in play.

2 things come to mind when I read this.

1) I do not feel it is necessarily true that gritty realism bogs down in play. While I've had a lot of fun times with D&D; I am pretty comfortable with saying that (imo) the "gritty realism" games I've played bogged down less than a lot of D&D sessions I've had -"by orders of magnitude" in some cases.

2) I'm not sure you can cite the gritty realism as being the primary reason for a different amount of popularity. I'm sure it's a factor, but I also believe the brand name of 'D&D' carries weight. It might not carry quite as much as it has in other eras, but it still does carry weight. Maybe I'm crazy, but I honestly believe that there are people I know who harshly criticize that I'm a GURPS fan, but would lovingly play the game if I could somehow place a D&D book cover on my Basic Set and lead them to believe they were playing D&D.
 

Have to disagree pemerton, taking a week to heal from a heavy blow or wound to the body may not be 100% realistic, but it is more realistic than healing in less than a day through non magical means. I see people assert over and over "no previous edition..." as if 4E healing is exactly in line with what came before. For many people (probably most people) it didn't at all match how damage or healing was handled in the past. No one is suggesring older editions penalized you for wounds (aside from walking around with fewer HP) or dealt with specific types of blows, but it did accomodate the notion that damage was physical and this is why mundane healing took so long (up to a week or more may not accurately model all physical wounds--though it spdoes model many--but it certainoy doesn't model being winded or tired from battle). There is a reason people took issue with healing surges.

I am not asking for impaling rules or hit location, but i am asking that my guy who got trashed with an orc's axe can't just walk it off in minutes to a day. I agree that blow isn't all physical damage, but you cant just ignore the physical damage aspect of HP like 4E does and expect everyone to be happy, then tell them they are just doing it wrong or don't understand when they complain. It might not trouble you, and that is fine, but it absolutely bothers me.
 
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D&D damage is, and always has been abstract.

<snip>

Gritty realism and medical detail are fine in theory but tend to bog down in play.
Sure. But how does this show that being critted by a lance in D&D means you've been impaled through the lung? That doesn't sound very abstract for me. That sounds like just the sort of gritty realism that D&D (as you say) avoids.

The consequence of damage being abstract is that it's abstract. Not that it's concrete, but we ignore its concreteness when we come to matters like healing, impairment, etc.

What does abstract damage look like in the fiction? I think Conan in the REH stories (much blood, much exhaustion, no serious injury) and Frodo after being speared by the cave troll.

Or perhaps it follows that off screen wound care involves prayer based healing rituals that are too slow and disruptable to be used in combat, but which allow for the healing of grevious injuries. Or maybe everyone in D&D knows magical/psionic disciplines that allow flawless wound recovery. But again, not combat usable and therefore not mentioned by the system. Fluff can be written as desired. It does not require chucking out the concept of grevious but sub-lethal damage.
This is the first time I've heard the theory that "natural healing" really isn't natural at all!

Have to disagree pemerton, taking a week to heal from a heavy blow or wound to the body may not be 100% realistic, but it is more realistic than healing in less than a day through non magical means.
In my view neither is remotely feasible - no one heals from a broken limb, a torn tendon or ligament, a ruptured lung, etc - in either a day or a week.

Which is why I say that no hp loss from which a PC recovers, or can recover, naturally (in any edition of D&D) amounts to a wound like that.

Which is why I further say that all hit point recovery is (i) recovering from bruises, scrapes, etc - like those narrated by REH in the Conan stories (Conan's lips are bloody, he has cuts all over him, but no soft tissue is torn, no bones broken, no major vessels severed); and (ii) is restoration of the mojo necessary to fight on despite such wounds.

And as I said, whether mojo recovery takes a day or a week is a matter of taste and pacing. (In Conan it seems to vary quite a bit, depending on the narrative needs of the author.)

I am not asking for impaling rules or hit location, but i am asking that my guy who got trashed with an orc's axe can't just walk it off in minutes to a day. I agree that blow isn't all physical damage, but you cant just ignore the physical damage aspect of HP like 4E does and expect everyone to be happy
Anyone who thinks that their PC gets trashed by an axe, and then is all better in a week, is (as far as I can see) envisaging a PC with regeneration powers far beyond anything human, or even action-movie-heroic.

All that you can recover from in a week is cuts (that don't hit major vessels) and bruises. And the difference between a week and a day, in respect of recovering sufficiently from such injuries that they are just a cosmetic features rather than debilitation, is as I say purely a matter of taste.

No one is suggesring older editions penalized you for wounds (aside from walking around with fewer HP) or dealt with specific types of blows, but it did accomodate the notion that damage was physical and this is why mundane healing took so long (up to a week or more may not accurately model all physical wounds--though it spdoes model many--but it certainoy doesn't model being winded or tired from battle).
But one week of healing IS NOT LONG AT ALL! And for those who think that it can't be modelling recovering being tired from battle, I wonder how often they engage in serious exertion! Admittedly I'm not the fittest guy around, but a month or so ago I jogged home from a roleplaying session. The distance is somewhere around 12 km. I was carrying my backpack of books and stuff - I'm going to call it around 10 kg. I was pushing a twin pram carrying around 35 kg of kids. And the temperature was somewhere around or a bit above 30 degrees C.

It wasn't the first time I'd done the trip, but never before with more than 2 of the 3 adverse factors (heavy backpack, pram, and high temperature). I was feeling the effects of the exertion - especially in my shoulders - for at least a week afterwards.

Obviously our fictional PCs are fitter than me, but they also push themselves a lot harder than I do. And (absent magical healing) they don't get all the care and attention that contemporary professional sportspeople and athletes get (who still require multiple days to recover from a game - at least in Australian football, it is considered a marked disadvantage to have to play on a Friday after having played the previous Sunday).

I see people assert over and over "no previous edition..." as if 4E healing is exactly in line with what came before.
Well I'm not such a person. 4e has dramatically different pacing rules for both incombat and out-of-combat healing. That's why I play it rather than AD&D or Basic. (Playing 3E is not even on my personal radar.)

Even in 4E, leader is (imo) the toughest role to go without.
Interesting. The group I GM went for 6 or so levels without a leader, but did have two cleric, one warlord and one bard multi-class, and one paladin PC and one dwarf fighter with Comeback Strike.

When PHB3 came out, the ranger (multi-class cleric) was rebuilt as a hybrid ranger-cleric, and since then two of the other three leader multi-class feast have been retrained away.

I have to push the party pretty hard for healing to become an issue as far as quantity is concerned (managing the timing of access to it continues to be an important part of play).
 

Pemerton, i am not persuaded. Your arguments keep addressing my points as if i am arguing for gritty realism, and that is simply not what i am calling for. Nor am i calling for a wounding system. If that was my argument, i could see your points, but given that i am saying i would rather have D&D be more realistic than te quick heals of 4E....You keep setting up my statements against standards of gritty reaism, which strikes me as a bit of a straw man. Is a week enough time to realistically heal from a sword slash? No, but it is realistic enough for me and greatly more realistic than shrugging it off after a battle. Ike I have said before, it provides a nod to realism, whereas the 4E approach (to me) handwaves it completely.
 

But one week of healing IS NOT LONG AT ALL! And for those who think that it can't be modelling recovering being tired from battle, I wonder how often they engage in serious exertion! Admittedly I'm not the fittest guy around, but a month or so ago I jogged home from a roleplaying session. The distance is somewhere around 12 km. I was carrying my backpack of books and stuff - I'm going to call it around 10 kg. I was pushing a twin pram carrying around 35 kg of kids. And the temperature was somewhere around or a bit above 30 degrees C.
).

The difference, at you point out, is conditioning.

And again, for those who think it is silly to assume HP largely reflects damage that cant be hand waved or walked off, why did previous editions require magic healing to get full hp back, and why was natural healing so slow? Clearly there is an attempt in there to model physical damage (even if it is somewhat abstract and not 100% realistic). Did I treat every ten hp of damage as a lung impalement? No. But if a guy lost half his HP i certainly would describe it as a deep wound. As has been offered, this is far fom perfect realism (especially since the guy with 9 hp recovers hos total faster than the guy with 90 hp). The downside of the simple nature of D&D hp is it has blind spots like this and only serves as a rough approximation. But i prefer that to a complex wound system. As i stated before, realistic enough...week-long mundane heals are more of a nod to realism than second or day long mundane heals. The first is vaguely believable, if medically immposible/unikely in many situations (though having had six surgeries this year, i can say for many deep wounds, one to two weeks is spot on for getting back to normal if you are properly bound---still have a cut, but you are physically back to your old self---depends on the surgery of course). The second is just so jarring, it can only be used to explain hp as mojo and light bruising.
 

Have to disagree pemerton, taking a week to heal from a heavy blow or wound to the body may not be 100% realistic, but it is more realistic than healing in less than a day through non magical means. I see people assert over and over "no previous edition..." as if 4E healing is exactly in line with what came before. For many people (probably most people) it didn't at all match how damage or healing was handled in the past. No one is suggesring older editions penalized you for wounds (aside from walking around with fewer HP) or dealt with specific types of blows, but it did accomodate the notion that damage was physical and this is why mundane healing took so long (up to a week or more may not accurately model all physical wounds--though it spdoes model many--but it certainoy doesn't model being winded or tired from battle). There is a reason people took issue with healing surges.

I am not asking for impaling rules or hit location, but i am asking that my guy who got trashed with an orc's axe can't just walk it off in minutes to a day. I agree that blow isn't all physical damage, but you cant just ignore the physical damage aspect of HP like 4E does and expect everyone to be happy, then tell them they are just doing it wrong or don't understand when they complain. It might not trouble you, and that is fine, but it absolutely bothers me.

+1 for truth and clarity. (must spread Xp around before etc etc....)
 

In my view neither is remotely feasible - no one heals from a broken limb, a torn tendon or ligament, a ruptured lung, etc - in either a day or a week.

I agree to an extent...but who decided there was a broken limb?

IMO that's where the problem lies, once we add that into the game, then yes, a week becomes very non-feasible.
 

A week of healing is a long time if a typical D&D adventure takes place over 1-2 days, which is the case, and has been the case, for example D&D adventures and published modules since the 1970s.

The game, and mind you D&D is a game, wants to keep players engaged. Leaving the scene of an adventure for a week periodically so someone can heal is not engaging to me--yes, the DM can make recovering from wounds "part of the adventure"! I'm not interested in that game--I want to play D&D.


P.S. In earlier editions of D&D, it took longer for non-magical healing to bring someone to full hit points if they had more hit points . . . meaning that natural healing didn't work as well if your PC was tougher. The low level wizard could recover from a near-fatal stab wound faster than the high level fighter who got knocked around some in combat.
 
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... and mind you D&D is a game, wants to keep players engaged.
Right there is the heart and core of the difference.
When I play D&D it would be a massive disservice to call it "a game (period)".

Yes, game elements are key and central. But the narrative immersion elements are actually MORE than equal to the simple "game" part of the fun.

This is a fundamental disconnect in what various groups want from the experience.

Leaving the scene of an adventure for a week periodically so someone can heal is not engaging to me--yes, the DM can make recovering from wounds "part of the adventure"! I'm not interested in that game--I want to play D&D.
When I read a novel I'm not "playing" along with the characters. And yet I'm massively engaged if the novel is good. That concept of being "engaged in a novel" is met and exceeded in a great RPG session. So, for me, that contradicts and overrides this concern you have expressed in two independent ways.

First, even if I am off-screen, I'm highly engaged in the activities of the other players and characters because not only is all the greatness of an excellent novel there as a minimum, but my character's past actions and future possibilities are closely entwined in the current activity.

The thought of someone being not engaged because their character is down is, frankly, just really sad to me. I've been told that people will start playing video games or browsing the internet while they wait for their character to come back "into" the game. To me that is no less than saying that someone has broken out a laptop in the theater during a movie or that they start completely skipping over chapters in a novel they are reading. The only possible justification is if the movie or book just really sucks. And because to me the RPG experience is superior to books and novels, then the comment on the game in question is even worse.

Second, if I was reading a great novel and a character was hurt in a battle but the author just declared that they got better though simply because the next piece of action was the next day and they needed to be better, then I'd set aside that book as crap. If it is wrong in a novel then it is wrong in a great RPG *as I can and do experience it*.

When you start calling the experience "a game (period)" and using that to justify hand waving away narrative continuity then you are tossing aside what is the greatness of the experience to me. And when you say that engagement requires personal activity at every moment then you are describing a circumstance that falls short of the greatness of the experience to me.

And the "to me" parts are important there. I completely accept that you may have zero interest in the parts that are so awesome to me. In the end only a tiny fraction of society is truly interested in TTRPGs in the first place. So I certainly can't even try to claim right or wrong or some kind of preponderance of opinion.

But I do think that other media can provide what you want but RPGs are pretty much unique in their ability to provide what I want.
 

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