April 3rd, Rule of 3

[Guest 85555]

Well, I wouldn't say 100 fights, but, don't most action heroes get through many, many fights without being wounded in any significant way? I haven't seen the movies in ages, but, I don't recall Indiana Jones, Han Solo or James Bond spending any significant time healing wounds. Even in LotR, other than Frodo, who takes any significant wounds that weren't fatal? LeggyLass, Aragorn, even Gandalf get into fight after fight after fight and never suffer any real wounds (other than dying and being raised, of course ). Even the hobbits, again, other than Frodo, never really suffer any serious wounds that I recall. (although, bringing up LotR is effectively Godwinning the thread, so I'm likely going to get proven wrong here)

Taking a step to the left to action TV shows, characters in shows like Buffy or Angel rarely take any serious wounds, despite getting into combat every single episode. Yes, I do realize that some do, from time to time, like Zander losing an eye, but, those are very much the exception and not the rule. It becomes a standing joke in the series that Giles gets knocked out yet again in a fight, yet never suffers any lasting injury.

There is a rather lengthy list of action stories where the protagonists get into many, many combats and yet suffer no lasting injury. Pre-4e HP make this impossible because every injury is lasting - it takes several days to weeks to heal naturally.

Isn't this a problem with the system?

Short answer: only if you are trying to simulate certain action movies.

Longer answer: it really depends on what you want the game to do, not everyone runs D&D cinematically---certainly my games when I first started weren't cinematic. But even if you look to cinema for inspiration characters do take time to recover from their injuries (or they plow on with wounds). The recover time is sometimes handwaved a bit (it may be less than in real life but it is usually there).

 

[Hussar]

Short answer: only if you are trying to simulate certain action movies.

Longer answer: it really depends on what you want the game to do, not everyone runs D&D cinematically---certainly my games when I first started weren't cinematic. But even if you look to cinema for inspiration characters do take time to recover from their injuries (or they plow on with wounds). The recover time is sometimes handwaved a bit (it may be less than in real life but it is usually there).

Meh, the characters "plow on" with their injuries because their injuries have no actual effect. The only time they recover is when the plot needs a bit of down time.

Well, I just provided a handful of examples from classic and modern fantasy of how HP are generally handled in fiction the matches with how HP are described in both 1e and 4e. Can you provide examples where protagonists take significant wounds that require serious attention before the end of the movie/plot/story?

And, yes, I am aware that there are some. There's the Conan story where he's crucified and then spends some months in the middle of the story recovering. So, yes, exceptions exist. But, that's the thing, they're very much the exception and not the rule. When John McClane steps on broken glass, he suffers no significant wounds - he limps a little and that's about it.

 

[Guest 85555]

Meh, the characters "plow on" with their injuries because their injuries have no actual effect. The only time they recover is when the plot needs a bit of down time.

No the wounds often do impact the character and the fact that they are injured ads to the tension. Yes movies are different from rpgs in that the writer has total contol and can place all elements conveniently where he needs them.

Well, I just provided a handful of examples from classic and modern fantasy of how HP are generally handled in fiction the matches with how HP are described in both 1e and 4e. Can you provide examples where protagonists take significant wounds that require serious attention before the end of the movie/plot/story?

And, yes, I am aware that there are some. There's the Conan story where he's crucified and then spends some months in the middle of the story recovering. So, yes, exceptions exist. But, that's the thing, they're very much the exception and not the rule. When John McClane steps on broken glass, he suffers no significant wounds - he limps a little and that's about it.

Excaliber leaps to mind. Conan is pivotal, not an exception. Pretty sure wounds lingered in gladiator but would need to see it again. Would probably need t go over my movie collection and find some examples.

But ultimately it doesn't matter because I am not simulating movies in my games. I never have.

 

[BryonD]

Well, I wouldn't say 100 fights, but, don't most action heroes get through many, many fights without being wounded in any significant way? I haven't seen the movies in ages, but, I don't recall Indiana Jones, Han Solo or James Bond spending any significant time healing wounds. Even in LotR, other than Frodo, who takes any significant wounds that weren't fatal? LeggyLass, Aragorn, even Gandalf get into fight after fight after fight and never suffer any real wounds (other than dying and being raised, of course ). Even the hobbits, again, other than Frodo, never really suffer any serious wounds that I recall. (although, bringing up LotR is effectively Godwinning the thread, so I'm likely going to get proven wrong here)

Taking a step to the left to action TV shows, characters in shows like Buffy or Angel rarely take any serious wounds, despite getting into combat every single episode. Yes, I do realize that some do, from time to time, like Zander losing an eye, but, those are very much the exception and not the rule. It becomes a standing joke in the series that Giles gets knocked out yet again in a fight, yet never suffers any lasting injury.

There is a rather lengthy list of action stories where the protagonists get into many, many combats and yet suffer no lasting injury. Pre-4e HP make this impossible because every injury is lasting - it takes several days to weeks to heal naturally.

Isn't this a problem with the system?

First I'll point out that less than 24 hours ago you were taking offense at the suggestion that 3E healing take weeks and, as I agreed, it isn't that long. But now suddenly you are using weeks as an attempt at criticism. Pick a side.


But beyond that, you've missed the point.
Natural healing is far and away the exception in D&D. Just as you describe cinematic wounds with lasting effect as the exception.
However they provide the baseline for all cause and effect wound removal to be compared against. Once you start surging wounds forever gone in the blink of an eye, you have completely changed the fundamental.

Further, in this case I was specifically responding to Pemerton's endorsement of all non-fatal HP loss being "mojo" or the like. I've got no issue with that being perfect for him. But I've also presented my reasons for that not working for me.

There is

 

[BryonD]

When John McClane steps on broken glass, he suffers no significant wounds - he limps a little and that's about it.

And at the end of the movie he goes to the hospital. The WHOLE movie happens in one night. ANY edition of D&D handles this perfectly well.

But in pre-4E D&D it makes sense for him to be limping because while he isn't actually hampered in any way, his HP are gone and eventually some cause will need to bring about actual healing. Only in 4E is his capable of wiggling his nose and making the damage he received go completely away forever. and that doesn't happen in the movie.

 

[Hussar]

And at the end of the movie he goes to the hospital. The WHOLE movie happens in one night. ANY edition of D&D handles this perfectly well.

But in pre-4E D&D it makes sense for him to be limping because while he isn't actually hampered in any way, his HP are gone and eventually some cause will need to bring about actual healing. Only in 4E is his capable of wiggling his nose and making the damage he received go completely away forever. and that doesn't happen in the movie.

This isn't actually true. In 4e he'd be down healing surges, just as in earlier editions, he'd be down HP. Since the entire movie takes place in one night, he cannot take an extended rest, so he cannot recover those healing surges.

However, in 3e, if he's ever knocked unconcious (been so long since I saw the movie I can't remember if he ever is), he's screwed and can never get back up.

But ultimately it doesn't matter because I am not simulating movies in my games. I never have.

So, if you are not drawing from genre fiction, just what do you want D&D to do? Me, I want my game to look like Indiana Jones, or Star Wars or any number of other action movies or novels. AD&D and 3e style healing does not allow me to do that - none of the genre titles I can think of requires a healbot cleric to patch over wounds.

So, what exactly do you want out of your D&D?

 

[I'm A Banana]

In 4e he'd be down healing surges, just as in earlier editions, he'd be down HP.

That's kind of true, but the difference in tension between "I'm at 2 hp! The next hit could render me unconscious!" and "I'm at 2 healing surges! The next...um...12 hits could render me unconscious, if our leader doesn't heal me!" is pretty dramatic.

However, in 3e, if he's ever knocked unconcious (been so long since I saw the movie I can't remember if he ever is), he's screwed and can never get back up.

This isn't any different in 4e. If a character drops below 0 hp, he's unconscious, no matter how many surges he has left.

It's sort of as if, in 3e, you had 40 hp, and, every time you took 10 damage, you dropped unconscious and started dying. 30 hp left, but who cares, you're dying. Unless you get healing from somewhere else, you will die, even though you still "kind of" have most of your HP left in the form of surges.

I like 4e's "second wind" mechanic, and that's easy enough to add in to any game without chucking surges into the mix. I'm also fond of the "surge value" concept that stops barbarians from sucking up the cleric's healing. I do like that a cleric is not required in 4e to get the healing done. These are all awesome things that don't depend on the surge mechanic as-is to get them done.

 

[Lanefan]

Wait, wait, wait...editions aside, you don't like garlic?

No, I don't. Nasty horrible stuff, ruins the taste of anything it gets near and the smell of any room it gets into.

Lan-"I don't think I'm part-Vampire"-efan

 

[FireLance]

This isn't any different in 4e. If a character drops below 0 hp, he's unconscious, no matter how many surges he has left.

It's sort of as if, in 3e, you had 40 hp, and, every time you took 10 damage, you dropped unconscious and started dying. 30 hp left, but who cares, you're dying. Unless you get healing from somewhere else, you will die, even though you still "kind of" have most of your HP left in the form of surges.

You know, from time to time, I've thought that 4e hit points are kind of like 3e's massive damage threshold. Whereas the 3e rule was something along the lines of: if you take 50 hp of damage from a single source, you must succeed on a DC 15 Fortitude save or die, the 4e approach makes the following changes:

1. The damage threshold increases by level instead of being a flat number.
2. The damage is dealt over a short period of time instead of from a single source.
3. Three failed "saving throws" instead of one.
4. More scope to "recover" hit points and stave off the need to make a saving throw in the first place.

Of course, by this interpretation, 4e characters who fail three death saves die from shock rather than actual wounds. (Which, I guess, explains why they are still mostly okay if they recover.)

 

[Lanefan]

That bolded word, right there, is the sticking point for me. What is "significant"? Three days? Seven days? One day? The example given was the movement of armies. An army generally moves 5-10 miles per day, 20 if they're REALLY in a hurry, and certainly not for any extended periods of time.

I didn't say anything about armies...

Even a day or two can make a big difference in a world with magic; where such magic can include long-range communication, teleport and other means of fast transport, summoning-gating-etc. effects, and so on. A week can make a big difference even for mundane types - the dungeon denizens send a messenger bird to their allies 50 miles up the coast on day 1 after your party retreats, by day 6 you could easily have a few boatloads more enemies to fight on your return to the dungeon...

When the difference between 1 day healing and 1 week healing is so insignificant, I'm really not buying the whole "the campaign evolves". Mostly because 1 week of healing actually occurs so rarely.

What if it's longer than a week?

Worst (or best) example from my current campaign: my group took about 1/4 of a game year to get through Keep on the Shadowfell; they kept finding legitimate reasons to go back to town - a 12-day round trip just in travel, never mind the time spent in town doing whatever - the problem I had was that KotS doesn't lend itself well to on-the-fly advancement unless I let Kalarel succeed and unleash whatever that thing is onto the world, which I didn't want to have happen.

Lan-"and then, after killing Kalarel, some of my party tried to finish what he'd started"-efan