April 3rd, Rule of 3

[Hussar]

That's kind of true, but the difference in tension between "I'm at 2 hp! The next hit could render me unconscious!" and "I'm at 2 healing surges! The next...um...12 hits could render me unconscious, if our leader doesn't heal me!" is pretty dramatic.

Now this is a point I hadn't actually considered. But, let's not forget, a 3e PC's whose down to 2 HP has likely lost 80+% of his HP. To get the same thing in 4e, you'd have to burn through those healing surges first.

Is the actual issue that the 4e PC's just have SO many HP? Between your base damage threshold and surges, 4e PC's have hundreds of HP, even at very modest levels.

Could you achieve the same effect simply by reducing the number of surges? I've seen people talk about the SWSE second wind mechanic, and, while I've never played that game, it would seem to achieve the same effect.

 

[Savage Wombat]

Now this is a point I hadn't actually considered. But, let's not forget, a 3e PC's whose down to 2 HP has likely lost 80+% of his HP. To get the same thing in 4e, you'd have to burn through those healing surges first.

Is the actual issue that the 4e PC's just have SO many HP? Between your base damage threshold and surges, 4e PC's have hundreds of HP, even at very modest levels.

Could you achieve the same effect simply by reducing the number of surges? I've seen people talk about the SWSE second wind mechanic, and, while I've never played that game, it would seem to achieve the same effect.

I've considered this point, but didn't bring it up. Because it seems to me that, if you're adding healing surges to a character's "total" HP, you have to add the total number of healing spells available to a 3E character (divided by 4 I suppose) to his HP to find his "real total".

It's another area where the min-maxxer math makes my brain hurt. Healing surges don't make a character have more HP within the context of a single encounter any more than the presence of the cleric does.

I'm happy with saying I prefer the older HP mechanic for simplicity, and not try to justify it as realistic or better math.

 

[Guest 85555]

So, if you are not drawing from genre fiction, just what do you want D&D to do? Me, I want my game to look like Indiana Jones, or Star Wars or any number of other action movies or novels. AD&D and 3e style healing does not allow me to do that - none of the genre titles I can think of requires a healbot cleric to patch over wounds.

So, what exactly do you want out of your D&D?

I take some mild inspiration from genre fiction, just as i take inspiration from history and myth...but i am not attempting to simulate those things because it is a different medium. My interest is not in replicating the physics, pacing and structure of Indiana Jones or Star Wars. Basically i am there to get into character and go through that character's challenges and exploits.

 

[pemerton]

if you're adding healing surges to a character's "total" HP, you have to add the total number of healing spells available to a 3E character (divided by 4 I suppose) to his HP to find his "real total".

<snip>

Healing surges don't make a character have more HP within the context of a single encounter any more than the presence of the cleric does.

Yes. And it's the pacing of combat encounters that, in my view, tends to contribute importantly to excitement in the game.

And at the end of the movie he goes to the hospital. The WHOLE movie happens in one night. ANY edition of D&D handles this perfectly well.

Well, seeing as this is the thread in which we get to express our preferences, let me express mine: not every edition of D&D handles this perfectly well, because those editions which are predicated simply on running down a single pool of hit points don't produce drama in the first N encounters (where N is something like 1 to 3 short of the total number of encounters before resting/healing).

The main feature of surges isn't that they recover overnight. That is essentially a pacing convention, which it would be utterly trivial for anyone who otherwise liked 4e to houserule. Just about the simplest houserule I've ever heard, of, in fact. (So simple it's a little odd that there is no sidebar canvassing it.)

The main feature of surges is their interaction with incombat healing, plus the short rest mechanic. (And unlike extended rests, mucking around with short rests while otherwise keeping 4e intact is a lot less trivial.) These produce a pacing of combat encounters in particular, but also of conflicts more generally, that is very different from (at least what I think of as) classic D&D combat-by-attrition.

In my view, the resultant pacing is more exciting.

 

[BryonD]

This isn't actually true. In 4e he'd be down healing surges, just as in earlier editions, he'd be down HP. Since the entire movie takes place in one night, he cannot take an extended rest, so he cannot recover those healing surges.

The point is that the surges don't just let him press on, they make all signs of the wounds forever go away.
At the end of the movie he doesn't need to recover his ability to make wounds vanish, he actually needs to wounds to be treated.

However, in 3e, if he's ever knocked unconcious (been so long since I saw the movie I can't remember if he ever is), he's screwed and can never get back up.

If by some means he is knocked unconscious and yet is alone he can recover in 3E. But it will take a lot of time and his chance of foiling the plot is pretty much sunk. Which makes sense.

If he is knocked unconscious with bad guys there, they can capture him and wake him up, or just kill him. Again, this works right in both a hypothetical movie plot and in 3E.

 

[Hussar]

The point is that the surges don't just let him press on, they make all signs of the wounds forever go away.
At the end of the movie he doesn't need to recover his ability to make wounds vanish, he actually needs to wounds to be treated.

If by some means he is knocked unconscious and yet is alone he can recover in 3E. But it will take a lot of time and his chance of foiling the plot is pretty much sunk. Which makes sense.


If he is knocked unconscious with bad guys there, they can capture him and wake him up, or just kill him. Again, this works right in both a hypothetical movie plot and in 3E.

No, they don't. He's down healing surges. He has less than his maximum hit points until such time as he rests. IOW, he has to get his wounds treated.

Now, if you want longer healing periods, again, this is a very simple fix. You regain X number of surges per day of rest. There done.

However, your 3e HP system doesn't allow me to be simply rendered unconscious by a blow (unless we start ruling that for some strange reason, that guy who was just trying to kill me decided to switch to non-lethal damage) and then recover a few minutes later and continue on. Just like we see in hundreds of action movies and stories.

 

[FireLance]

The point is that the surges don't just let him press on, they make all signs of the wounds forever go away.

I think the problem with the rapid recovery of hit points through non-magical means (gosh, wasn't that a mouthful) is that it's something new in 4e. However, because the rulebook did not go the additional step of suggesting how it should be narrated, there is the tendency for many people to fall back on the narrations which worked in previous editions, in which the rapid recovery of hit points is magical and tied to the disappearance of wounds, and which are obviously no longer adequate.

Hindsight is, of course, 20-20, but who knows how it could have gone if the first player's handbook had a paragraph along the lines of:

"Non-magical recovery from damage, such as from the second wind action, spending healing surges during a short rest, or a warlord's inspiring word, restores a character's vigor and fighting spirit, but does not actually heal existing wounds. It provides a character with a pool of vigor points which are functionally identical to hit points instead of actually restoring lost hit points. Nonetheless, for simplicity, you may choose to add vigor points gained in this manner directly to your hit points. However, if you prefer, you could also choose to keep track of them separately."

 

[Guest 85555]

No, they don't. He's down healing surges. He has less than his maximum hit points until such time as he rests. IOW, he has to get his wounds treated.

Now, if you want longer healing periods, again, this is a very simple fix. You regain X number of surges per day of rest. There done.

However, your 3e HP system doesn't allow me to be simply rendered unconscious by a blow (unless we start ruling that for some strange reason, that guy who was just trying to kill me decided to switch to non-lethal damage) and then recover a few minutes later and continue on. Just like we see in hundreds of action movies and stories.

I understand this interpretation of HS (essentially your healing surges represent your physica damage) but that has always seemed a bit odd to me. I also dont believe this was ever the intent behind them (unless i am missing the text where they said so in the phb---totalky possible) but rather was an explanation people offered and stuck with after the fact. I am honestly not sure why i disike hs as wounds so much (i suspect it may have something to do with putting it in the player's court to decide when he is physically damaged--the moment you use a surge you are damaged)...and alot of 4E stuff seems to be after the fact narration (we dont know what happened, when it happened, only after). Which kind of bothers me as well.

 

[Balesir]

I understand this interpretation of HS (essentially your healing surges represent your physica damage) but that has always seemed a bit odd to me. I also dont believe this was ever the intent behind them (unless i am missing the text where they said so in the phb---totalky possible) but rather was an explanation people offered and stuck with after the fact. I am honestly not sure why i disike hs as wounds so much (i suspect it may have something to do with putting it in the player's court to decide when he is physically damaged--the moment you use a surge you are damaged)...and alot of 4E stuff seems to be after the fact narration (we dont know what happened, when it happened, only after). Which kind of bothers me as well.

I don't think HS were ever stated in the rules as being "physical damage", no - and I think that was quite intentional. This is an aspect of 4e that I see as revolutionary and quite an epiphany in the design of D&D-type RPGs. It defines the role of the rules as being to determine (only) those aspects of the imagined fiction that must be synchronised among all the players; the rest it leaves to the individual imaginations of those playing to visualise as it suits them.

I think this is briliant, because everyone at the table will, inevitably, have their own visualisation of the imagined events, and these versions will inevitably differ in detail. The designers of 4e simply realised that the function of the rules is to determine how those elements that must be synchronised if play is to remain meaningful will be defined. The written rules furthermore communicate those definitional mechanics to the players, so that they know enough to frame their own visualisation such that it will not conflict with the rules (and thus the synchronised elements of the fiction).

It works on such a clear picture of what is going on at the table that it just makes sense. It falls down when (a) the players (most likely the DM) decides that they want to define different synchronised outcomes from those set out in the rules, and (b) they don't communicate the changes to the rules that they are (unilaterally) making, leading to other players seeing a clash between how they are envisioning the scene and the declared synchronised elements.

 

[pemerton]

The point is that the surges don't just let him press on, they make all signs of the wounds forever go away.

By "signs" do you mean physical marks - bruises, cuts etc - or physical impediments?

There is nothing in the 4e rules that suggests either surge expenditure (following a short rest, or the application of some healing power) or surge recovery (following an extended rest) means that all physical marks of injury have gone away. But obviously surge expenditure means that the PC is now able to press on (although pressing on now taxes the ability to do so later, as surges are a finite resource), and surge recovery means that whatever injuries were sustained are no longer a burden on the PC's ability to press on (in 4e, mojo is recovered with an overnight rest).