April 3rd, Rule of 3

[BryonD]

So, despite the fact that all three are human, have exactly the same stats, their character class is used as an in-game explanation for the weaker (wizard) character healing more than TWICE as fast as the fighter?

Sure if healing includes both physical wounds and also abstract mojo, then this is completely reasonable. And I can recall conversation about EXACTLY this issue as early as high school back in the 80s.

So this isn't even a new concept or confusing point and neither 3E nor 4E change that.

No, it isn't. For one, unless you're the cleric, someone else is spending the resources and those resources may be virtually infinite (healing wands) and completely divorced from any specific character.

So? That is completely irrelevant.

Surges can never be added to, although there are a few surgeless healing resources.

So?

It's no different than my 100 hp character taking 10 damage. I have 90 hp left. My 50 hp, down one surge character, is exactly the same.

I think you may have mistyped something here. I don't follow what you are claiming.

 

[Hussar]

My point wasn't to say 3e bad, 4e good. Not in the slightest.

My point is that HP are about as internally consistent as the average bowl of lukewarm jello.

Now, exactly where the inconsistencies lie depends on the edition.

I think you may have mistyped something here. I don't follow what you are claiming.

Heh, typing too fast. My 50 HP character has 10 healing surges. He takes damage and then spends a surge. So, now he has 50 HP and 9 (or whatever) surges. His total hit points have been reduced. Conversely, my 200 HP character takes damage and is now down to 190 HP. His total hit points have been reduced.

How do surges remove damage? The difference, as KM points out, is that the second character can only die when he has lost all his HP. The surge character can die with surges remaining - although no active hit points.

And this I can see as a sticking point. I'm not sure how to reconcile that.

 

[pemerton]

I think you may have mistyped something here. I don't follow what you are claiming.

I think [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION] is saying that being 10 hp down from 100 hp (ie 90 hp remaining) in pre-43 is not unlike being at full hp but 1 healing surge down in 4e.

In both cases the PC is slightly closer, at the mechanical level, to being felled by a fatal blow.

And in both cases the PC, in the fiction, has expended some mojo to push through a minor blow, dodge an orc axe, or whatever exactly the narration of the hp loss involved.

Of course there are differences too. The most obvious being that, pre-4e, the PC has full access to his/her mojo at all times (ie no special action required to turn on the hp tap). Whereas in 4e the PC has only limited access to his/her mojo (ie special conditions - either power use, or a short rest - are required to turn on the surge tap).

 

[pemerton]

But the idea of splitting HP into in-encounter and out-of-encounter resources is not what I like. HP are HP are HP.

Well that's what up for grabs, isn't it?

Hit points are primarily a metagame mechanic, after all, and so the question is "Under what conditions can my PC access his/her hp and therefore keep going?" 4e's answer - that unless the PC gets a brief respite (second wind or short rest), inspiration (ie using a healing power) is required - proudces an interesting game, I think. It is interesting in its mechanical/tactical play - the way incombat healing becomes part of the action economy - and in its story/fictional play - heroes are stronger in teams, for example, where they help one another push on.

Wish is the response to [MENTION=22779]Hussar[/MENTION]'s query about "how to reconcile it" - 4e has a different theory of mojo from earlier editions. You can't draw on your mojo without a brief respite, or inspiration.

 

[Crazy Jerome]

Heh, typing too fast. My 50 HP character has 10 healing surges. He takes damage and then spends a surge. So, now he has 50 HP and 9 (or whatever) surges. His total hit points have been reduced. Conversely, my 200 HP character takes damage and is now down to 190 HP. His total hit points have been reduced.

How do surges remove damage? The difference, as KM points out, is that the second character can only die when he has lost all his HP. The surge character can die with surges remaining - although no active hit points.

And this I can see as a sticking point. I'm not sure how to reconcile that.

Somewhere sort of halfway between 3E and 4E would be:

1. Reduce the number of hit points and surges. This probably needs to be done in any case, so no problem there.
2. Make death saves not "three strikes and you're out", but "fail the death save, lose a surge--out of surges, you die."
3. Finally, the "dial" in this system is that each group can decide to cash in a certain amount of surges permanently, to effectively raise their hit points.

That might not be entirely clear, but what it does is take Firelance's observation about surges to its logical conclusion, and then build in the proper spot to change it by playstyle. Consider a few of the places you can set it. We'll change your example character to 30 hit points and 4 surges, each recovering 20% of hit points:

• You play like 4E with smaller numbers. Use "optional" 4E-style death saves.
• You play sort of like 4E with smaller numbers. Use as written.
• You play like a 4E/3E hybrid with a bit smaller numbers and alternate death save mechanic. You cash in all your surges for hit points except a handful, perhaps 2. The character has 30 x 1.4 = 42 hit points and two surges. You don't need the surges to activate healing, can use them for second wind if you want, but if you hit zero hit points and don't have one left, you die on a failed saving throw.
• You play a lot like 3E. You cash in all the surges, giving 54 hit points, and you use some optional dying rule, base it on -Con value, or whatever makes sense to you. Healing is all resource-based.
• You play like Basic with a bit bigger numbers. You cash in all your surges for hit points. You've got 54 hit points. When they run out, you die. Healing is resource based, and not always readily available.

Those are all very close to balanced with each other, which means that they can be used in the same system together. Where they aren't balanced, you want the differences. If I pick "sort of 4E emulation," I want it possible that a character can die with surges left, or I use the new standard that death saves cost a surge until you run out. If I pick one of the emulations closer to 3E, I want a big pool of hit points that the characters are expected to manage, hit points are all hit points.

The only difference in this and a more direct 1E, 3E, 4E approach is that it's easier to see how to change it, while still keeping it balanced. It does constrain the design to more hit points than Basic, but less than 3E/4E at the upper end. Otherwise, it will get out of control quickly.

Lastly, I've roughed this out in a way that makes sense from the 3E and then 4E changes, but the exact same math could be presented to make surges less intrusive. Instead of the default being as above, the default is more like Basic D&D--hit points are hit points, die at zero. Then you provide options for different recovery/death save options, and some of those require you to trade some of those hit points in for surges.

The example character has 54 hit points, but if you go with 4E emulation, he has to trade in 24 of those for surges that can recover 6 points each. (Or perhaps you use a slightly different formula to make this easier.)

BTW, there are some rather obvious options for Save or Die that you can build into that model.

 

[Hussar]

CJ - I cannot posrep you again, but, you deserve LOTS for that idea.

This is the module I hope I see in 5e.

 

[Lanefan]

However, your 3e HP system doesn't allow me to be simply rendered unconscious by a blow (unless we start ruling that for some strange reason, that guy who was just trying to kill me decided to switch to non-lethal damage) and then recover a few minutes later and continue on. Just like we see in hundreds of action movies and stories.

It's not just 3e that has this problem. The range of physical conditions between fully functional and dead (e.g. unconscious, badly hurt but hanging on, dying but not dead yet, recovering after being knocked out, etc.) has never been handled well by any version of D&D.

There's been many times when, for dramatic reasons, I've wished the game could handle such things; I bent some thought to designing a system for such many years ago but gave up once I realized how much it would bog the game down.

Hindsight is, of course, 20-20, but who knows how it could have gone if the first player's handbook had a paragraph along the lines of:

"Non-magical recovery from damage, such as from the second wind action, spending healing surges during a short rest, or a warlord's inspiring word, restores a character's vigor and fighting spirit, but does not actually heal existing wounds. It provides a character with a pool of vigor points which are functionally identical to hit points instead of actually restoring lost hit points. Nonetheless, for simplicity, you may choose to add vigor points gained in this manner directly to your hit points. However, if you prefer, you could also choose to keep track of them separately."

In other words, body points/fatigue points with different rules for recovery of each; which I've been lobbying for for years.

Lanefan

 

[Lanefan]

So, despite the fact that all three are human, have exactly the same stats, their character class is used as an in-game explanation for the weaker (wizard) character healing more than TWICE as fast as the fighter? And, for some bizarre reason, 1 HP in a fighter is somehow entirely different than 1 HP in a wizard or a rogue. And that's an argument for consistency?

To me it's an argument for a rather obvious houserule looking for a place to land: that one's natural heal rate is affected not by level, but by some combination of Con. score or bonus and number of h.p. when at full.

Because otherwise, what you're describing *is* ludicrous.

Lanefan

 

[Hussar]

To me it's an argument for a rather obvious houserule looking for a place to land: that one's natural heal rate is affected not by level, but by some combination of Con. score or bonus and number of h.p. when at full.

Because otherwise, what you're describing *is* ludicrous.

Lanefan

Heh.

It's not just 3e that has this problem. The range of physical conditions between fully functional and dead (e.g. unconscious, badly hurt but hanging on, dying but not dead yet, recovering after being knocked out, etc.) has never been handled well by any version of D&D.

There's been many times when, for dramatic reasons, I've wished the game could handle such things; I bent some thought to designing a system for such many years ago but gave up once I realized how much it would bog the game down.

True. And you'll get no argument from me for that.

And, really, I think you nailed pretty well why HP are still the default for a lot of rpg's and video games. Yes, they're wonky. Yes, they're inconsistent. Yes, they make about as much sense as cardboard hamers.

But, dammit, they're just SOOO easy to use.

 

[Balesir]

How do surges remove damage? The difference, as KM points out, is that the second character can only die when he has lost all his HP. The surge character can die with surges remaining - although no active hit points.

And this I can see as a sticking point. I'm not sure how to reconcile that.

I really don't have an issue with this, personally.

If a guy walking down the street gets hit by a meteorite, he can be dead with all his spirit/mojo/whatever intact. If you don't get a chance to focus and psyche yourself to grin through the pain, that's what happens. HPs really only account for shock, fatigue (recently shown to be interchangable with fear in combat scenarios), bloodloss, exhaustion and so on, whether directly or via causing openings for a "finishing blow".

As for why all (actually, most) games use HPs; not all do. Mostly I think it's laziness and relying on a known and accepted trope. I'm actually convinced that there's room out there for a simplified "wound" system - like HârnMaster, but without hit locations. Like the HM 'quickstarter' rules, in fact...