D&D General Arbitrary and Capricious: Unpacking Rules and Rulings in the Context of Fairness

[Tony Vargas]

I recall encountering the min-max label back in the day, but in the context of games other than D&D...
...with 3.0, D&D became enough of a point-buy* system for it to apply readily.



*albeit with with very 'large' points, like, oh, levels.

 

[nevin]

Rule 0 in 3e was kinda ironic. The edition whose community became most obsessed with RaW, that considered adding 'house rules' mid-campaign a breach of the social contract, etc... Conversely, TSR never explicitly stated a Rule 0, yet it was wholly embraced.

Pre-3e there were certainly rules-lawyers. Not a well-regarded label for a player. But the rules lawyer argued like he was before a high court justice, angling for a favorable ruling, which might or might not be arguably the letter of the law.

I wouldn't say ironic I'd say the more rules you add the more lawyers you create. History would back me up on that one I think.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

I feel like the min-maxed and rules lawyer became one during the post TSR era, and before those were two distinct categories of player

The rules lawyers (originally called "barracks lawyers" or "barracks room lawyers") seems to date from the beginning of the game, and was also a feature in wargaming. In fact, the DMG mentions them-

It is the spirit of the game, not the letter of the rules, which is important. Never hold to the letter written, nor allow some barracks room lawyer to force quotations from the rule book upon you.

1e DMG 230.

While overpowered characters certainly existed early on, see, e.g., Gods Demigods and Heroes (1976), this was considered an effect of "Monty Haul" DMs (then called Monty Hall DMs) and not optimization.

Min/maxers didn't really become a thing until after the "Egbert Explosion" and was generally thought of as a side-effect of the growing popularity of the game with the younger crowd. This led to the term, and debates over, munchkins in the early 80s.

 

[nevin]

min maxers are the same as rules lawers. They were trying back then but there weren't as many rules to jiggle and buttons to push to min max. Every new rule every new system every new archetype feeds those guys.

 

[Tony Vargas]

"munchkin" is a funny one, it seemed to get very different meanings as time went by...
...maybe not as funny as the Storyteller crowd adopting 'twink...'

 

[Reynard]

"munchkin" is a funny one, it seemed to get very different meanings as time went by...
...maybe not as funny as the Storyteller crowd adopting 'twink...'

If I recall, munchkin started off as a derogatory term for kids wanting to play, but evolved into a synonym for "power gamer."

 

[Tony Vargas]

That matches my recollection.

 

[billd91]

If I recall, munchkin started off as a derogatory term for kids wanting to play, but evolved into a synonym for "power gamer."

There's an additional connotation to the munchkin. It's not just a power gamer, plenty of whom exist within the conventional interpretation of the rules. A munchkin is someone who not only goes for min/max power gaming, but also rules lawyering, outlandish interpretations of rules and outlandish behavior. The card game Munchkin captures that fairly well in its lampoon of the gamer archetype. The players aren't just maximizing their power, they're griefing, manipulating rules, and cheating when they can get away with it.

 

[overgeeked]

Cool. Now do one on the idea of sportsmanship in RPGs.

 

[Umbran]

min maxers are the same as rules lawers.

Min-maxing is generally a function of building a character.
Rules-lawyering is an activity seen during a session of play.

Solid min-maxing does not generally require rules argument to function during play. And someone who hasn't done loads of math before play to optimize their character can (and some will) argue over application of rules forever during play - often even when it isn't about them.