Arcana Evolved with another setting

[Cam Banks]

I'm idly planning my next big campaign and I'd like to use Monte Cook's Arcana Evolved book for classes, spells, etc. I don't really have any interest in using the Diamond Throne setting, however, and will probably not even use the AE races. I'm interested in people who have used this book as their core player's handbook for a setting of their own, or for other published settings. In other words, explicitly not using the D&D3.5 PHB.

I've looked over at Diamondthrone.com and saw a couple of short articles about settings folks have come up with, but I prefer to hear from actual play or experience if possible.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Wombat]

I had my New Mavarga setting running for about a year -- that was AU, rather than AE, but same nevermind in this case.

The faen & humans were one culture (more-or-less European); the litorians, sibeccai, and giants were another (more-or-less Mesoamerican), and the verrik and mojh were a third (more-or-less Chinese). The idea was that the Akapans (giants) were the native people of the land, very much a jungle/rainforest setting, and they had created the litorians and sibeccai as servitors. Then an equivalent to Columbus came over (human) and tried to set up a colony, while another group settled on the other side from not-China -- the Akapans found themselves encroached from both sides, but strong because they knew the land and the local spirits.

The game was set up with the idea of clash of cultures (none Right or Wrong, but all with very different perspectives on How Things Are) and none of them in a position to get rid of or ignore the other cultures. We had fun with special rules for amour in hot, humid environments, Eagle Knights who could actually become eagles, macahuitls coming towards your head, and lots of swashbuckling. We also borrowed a couple of ideas out of Skull & Bones (primarily the fencing schools) to add that yar! aspect!

It was a lot of fun. I've been thinking of retooling the whole setting using the Burning Wheel rules (rather than D20) and see what comes up.

 

[Cam Banks]

I like the use of cultures as a big part of the new setting. AE seems to be well-suited for exploring the importance of ceremony and ritual, as well as a connection to the earth/Green, and this is something I want to keep, also.

How did the various classes translate to your setting? Did you find that some classes had less value (runethane, for example) or were all of them part of the setup?

My current idea revolves around a New World vs Old World concept, too, with the majority of the races showing up on a new world having fled the last one. They bring with them a ritualistic and traditional view, but the new world seems to be more dynamic and vibrant (it has dinosaurs and is very frontier-like). So, on the one side are magisters, mage blades, ritual warriors, and runethanes, and on the other are unfettered, greenbonds, totem warriors, and witches. I'm still playing with ideas, but I think I can fit them all in. The akashics will form the bridge - the akashic memory of the new world is a whole different one than the one they left, so they get some strange insights into the new world's mysteries.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I'm using many classes from AE in my Oathbound game. I generally prefer the way their spellcasting system works (along with the spell lists) to the PHB. Particularly important is the lack of divine casters, which make sense given the nature of the Forge and how I modified the cosmology for the campaign (sort of Oathbound meets His Dark Materials). From the PHB, the fighter (modified with d12 HD, 4 skill points/level, medium will save), rogue, ranger, barbarian, and bard (simple spellcasting) made the cut. Also, all skills are considered class skills for everyone. Its let anyone who desires to help out in social situations do so without dipping in a class just to get charisma based skills.

Warmains were ditched, as I've found them sub-par to even PHB fighters given their fewer feats, as were runethanes, due to being the NPC class equivalent of the magister. Witches were given a slightly toned down sorcerer spell progression and fixed spells known/readied, as I've found their minor powers in no way made up for the loss of high level spells compared to the magister.

Also changed were how exotic spells were learned. Exotic spells normally arent particularly "better" than other spells of their level, just more rare. To require a feat to learn one seemed on par with requiring a feat to be left handed, or have an unusual eye color. So we added a research system to help casters learn them without wasting a feat, and all spells from the spell treasury are considered "exotic".

Like you, I found the Diamond Throne setting pretty uninspired. Nothing reached out and grabbed me, and the world felt a little too stable for my tastes.

In play, its worked really well. Theres a magister, a greenbond/ranger, a ranger, an akashic, a righter/rogue and a mind witch. The players griped a bit about the healing (dealing subdual to the caster), but quickly saw how much MORE healing the greenbond could crank out compared to a cleric of the same level, and moved on. Also important to remember is that healing cures an equal amount of subdual damage and normal damage, so someone injured that casts a healing spell (and gets hit w subdual damage) and is in turn healed is cured of both with one cast. Its also allowed me to work in the return of Cure Light Wounds (renamed Ywannach's Touch) as a campaign event and player reward for completing a major series of quests to remove a blight from the land.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

How did the various classes translate to your setting? Did you find that some classes had less value (runethane, for example) or were all of them part of the setup?

Runethanes are weak magisters. You have a few simple spells, and runes. The runes are frequently the equivalent of complex spells. So combined, you basically have a magister, but with part of his spell list permantly chosen (and with a longer casting time). Realistically, almost anything a runethane can do, a magister can do with the same setup, and still have more flexibility. Its slightly better than the adept, but not PC caliber.

I feel the same way about the ritual warrior, which severely needs full BAB advancement. Oathsword suffer from the same problems monks do (MAD, glass jaw, weak attacks vs DR and low damage output compared to a 2 handed power attacker), and champions, while a great idea, also struck everyone as being somewhat weak.

 

[Technik4]

Warmains were ditched, as I've found them sub-par to even PHB fighters given their fewer feats

They get the same number of feats as the phb fighter, but some of them are automatically chosen (Sturdy at 1st, Weapon Spec at 4th, Crushing Blow at 8th, Armor Specialization at 12th, Weapon Size Increase at 16th, and Weapon Mastery at 20th). They also get some combat rites at higher levels.

I don't see how you could possibly see them as sub-par to fighters, unless you were already pumping the fighter class from the phb. Warmains will have just as many feats, some of them are just spent on abilities that the phb fighter can't get. And warmains have a better HD (and slightly better Will saves).

Runethanes are weak magisters. You have a few simple spells, and runes. The runes are frequently the equivalent of complex spells. So combined, you basically have a magister, but with part of his spell list permantly chosen (and with a longer casting time). Realistically, almost anything a runethane can do, a magister can do with the same setup, and still have more flexibility. Its slightly better than the adept, but not PC caliber.

There are only 2 spell progressions in AU/AE: full magister/greenbond progression and stunted progression for mage blades, runethanes, and witches. While the runethane suffers through bad BAB and does have wizard saving throws (bad fort and ref, good will), I think you are under-rating the rune ability. While new runes conform to spell-levels (lesser runes are 1st or 2nd level spell equivalent, advanced runes are 3rd-4th level equivalent, etc), some of the existing runes are quite powerful. Like the Mage Armor rune that you can cast on anyone (usually an exotic spell in AU/AE). The runic template is also pretty powerful, forcing saving throws to be made modified by intelligence instead of the usual saves (goodnight animals).

I feel the same way about the ritual warrior, which severely needs full BAB advancement. Oathsword suffer from the same problems monks do (MAD, glass jaw, weak attacks vs DR and low damage output compared to a 2 handed power attacker), and champions, while a great idea, also struck everyone as being somewhat weak.

I don't see how you guys were disappointed with the ritual warrior. He gets 2 medium saves and a good save (no bad saves) and a concentration save which should be an automatic save 1/day. Combat rites ramp up quickly and the class has ability score bonuses as well as bonus feats.

Champions may only appear weak with your uber-fighter in existence. Compared to Warmains they are a reasonable alternative for a full-bab class with a lot of customization.

 

[Cam Banks]

Champions may only appear weak with your uber-fighter in existence. Compared to Warmains they are a reasonable alternative for a full-bab class with a lot of customization.

From what I've been able to determine so far, I agree - if you don't have a fighter class in the mix (especially not one with better skill points and HD) then the warmain and champion are in a good place.

Also, I may be wrong in thinking this, but isn't the ritual warrior's BAB only medium because the various rites can beef it up to healthy levels? What would happen to the balance between the ritual warrior and other martial classes if you gave them good BAB?

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

They get the same number of feats as the phb fighter, but some of them are automatically chosen (Sturdy at 1st, Weapon Spec at 4th, Crushing Blow at 8th, Armor Specialization at 12th, Weapon Size Increase at 16th, and Weapon Mastery at 20th). They also get some combat rites at higher levels.

Sturdy is a pretty bad feat, having it required is worse. Weapon size increase is, on average, what, an extra point or so of damage? Overall, even compared to a PHB 2 fighter, they are sub par, and the fighter is traditionally held as one of the weakest classes out there. The warmain is a character whose sole contribution is combat, and hes not very good at that.

There are only 2 spell progressions in AU/AE: full magister/greenbond progression and stunted progression for mage blades, runethanes, and witches. While the runethane suffers through bad BAB and does have wizard saving throws (bad fort and ref, good will), I think you are under-rating the rune ability. While new runes conform to spell-levels (lesser runes are 1st or 2nd level spell equivalent, advanced runes are 3rd-4th level equivalent, etc), some of the existing runes are quite powerful. Like the Mage Armor rune that you can cast on anyone (usually an exotic spell in AU/AE). The runic template is also pretty powerful, forcing saving throws to be made modified by intelligence instead of the usual saves (goodnight animals).

They get mage armor. Whee. IIRC anyone can use the runic template gained from the appropriate feat. They just give up WAY too much in return for their runes. Are they better than full selection of upper level spells? Not by a longshot. Same with the witch. You trade out high level spells for an extra helping of parlour tricks (in comparison). At least the mageblade gets a free magic weapon (really good), more HP, armor, etc.

I don't see how you guys were disappointed with the ritual warrior. He gets 2 medium saves and a good save (no bad saves) and a concentration save which should be an automatic save 1/day. Combat rites ramp up quickly and the class has ability score bonuses as well as bonus feats.

The combat rites largely fix the mediocre BAB and HD. A few times per day. Meaning, several times per day, they can rise to baseline status. Compare them to a mageblade with a few choice abilities and athame edge and you quickly see how much of a joke they are. IMO they dont even favor comparably to a BARD with a few fighter levels buffing themselves with inspire courage (that also helps out the party). And the bard has more skills and spells that aid more in non-combat situations.

Champions may only appear weak with your uber-fighter in existence. Compared to Warmains they are a reasonable alternative for a full-bab class with a lot of customization.

And again, are just wimps compared to spellcasters. If you want to perpetuate the "mages rule, fighters drool" crappy design of 1st edition, be my guest. Non-casters need a boost. AE grants a TON more flexibility to casters, and keeps the martials fighting for the spotlight scraps. Hence my tweaks. Having playtested this for over a year, I stand by my decisions.

 

[Voadam]

I played in an FR game that combined D&D and AE, using AE stuff in the conflicts (stealth, tumbling, etc.). My giant warmain fit in fine. Adding in more races into FR was not really a problem.

 

[Voadam]

I'm also playing a giant in an Age of Worms Greyhawk game. Backstory is that he was cursed in the womb by a hexblade, came out big with darkvision, not human subtype, and instinctively speaking giant. Been fun.