Arcana Evolved with another setting

[Technik4]

Sturdy is a pretty bad feat, having it required is worse. Weapon size increase is, on average, what, an extra point or so of damage? Overall, even compared to a PHB 2 fighter, they are sub par, and the fighter is traditionally held as one of the weakest classes out there. The warmain is a character whose sole contribution is combat, and hes not very good at that.

Sturdy is not a great feat, but its better than toughness. With a +3 Con mod, you get +6 hp at first level. Thats a lot of hit points for low-levels. Even if you have a +2 or lower mod, you get 4 automatically. And this is on top of the d12 HD. I don't see how a fighter compares favorably to the warmain - can you cite the levels where you compared them (very early levels seem easy to eyeball in the warmain's favor, as do higher levels when the warmain has crushing blow and combat rites). Also the example in AE for Weapon Size Increase cites using a greatsword in one-hand with a shield (compare 2d6 to d8 longsword).

Above and beyond comparisons, how can you say his sole contribution is combat, and he's not very good at that? Is there a class that gives 1.5 BAB for level that I don't know about, because I'm pretty sure that it represents exactly what a combat character should be about.

They get mage armor. Whee. IIRC anyone can use the runic template gained from the appropriate feat. They just give up WAY too much in return for their runes. Are they better than full selection of upper level spells? Not by a longshot. Same with the witch. You trade out high level spells for an extra helping of parlour tricks (in comparison). At least the mageblade gets a free magic weapon (really good), more HP, armor, etc.

Again, I'd like to see the levels you compare them at. Perhaps giving Magisters all the Exotic spells in the book has soured you on non-magister casters, but RAW Magisters do NOT have that ability. Your comparisons to magister fall short without a level to gauge them at. Also, those 'parlour tricks' are actually fairly decent and include Spell Resistance, Wisdom to Armor Class, Magical Weapon creation, or Hold Person Wis times/day (for the witch). For the Runethane you get the ability to give items luck bonuses, elemental damage and elemental resistance, DR 20/+2 (or 15/magic), and other more powerful effects like teleportation.

The combat rites largely fix the mediocre BAB and HD. A few times per day. Meaning, several times per day, they can rise to baseline status. Compare them to a mageblade with a few choice abilities and athame edge and you quickly see how much of a joke they are. IMO they dont even favor comparably to a BARD with a few fighter levels buffing themselves with inspire courage (that also helps out the party). And the bard has more skills and spells that aid more in non-combat situations.

Are you kidding? Combat rites are awesome and allow ritual warriors to do stunts a few times a day that make them look awesome. I don't understand this one, since you seem to think magisters and full-casting progression is so good, why don't you like ritual warriors who get the ability to shine in a few combats per day (much like a magister). On top of that they get bonus feats, good saves (Generally), and ability score boosts. And a d10 HD with 4 + Int skills/level (which compares favorably against the freakin bard).

And again, are just wimps compared to spellcasters. If you want to perpetuate the "mages rule, fighters drool" crappy design of 1st edition, be my guest. Non-casters need a boost. AE grants a TON more flexibility to casters, and keeps the martials fighting for the spotlight scraps. Hence my tweaks. Having playtested this for over a year, I stand by my decisions.

If the only mages you and your friends play are magisters, then I can kinda see where you're coming from (especially seeing as you have such lax rules on exotic spells). It sounds like you think its personally reasonable to let the magister hang back and cast devastating spells while the grunts duke it out, and I agree, doing so makes the rest of the not-full-progression casters look weak since they are probably defending the magisters instead of fulfilling a hybrid role they are designed for.

 

[Technik4]

Magister vs Runethane

I did some comparisons with the Magister and Runethane, mostly for my own amusement. Here are the stats (which do not include Magic Items):

Default Array:
15,14,13,12,10,8

Both are Human

Magister3 vs Runethane3
Mag3
HP: 2d6+12, BAB:+1, AC: 11, Saves: F +3, R +2, W +4
S 10 D 13 C 14 I 15 W 12 C 8
Feats: Psion, Eldritch Training, Craft Spell Completion Item, Craft Single-Use Item
Spell Slots: 0-3, 1-3, 2-2
Spells Readied: 0-6, 1-4, 2-2
Skill Points (2+2+1) x (4) + 10 = 30 skill points (or 5 maxed skills)

Rnt3
HP: 2d6+12, BAB: +1, AC: 15, Saves: F +3, R +2, W +4
S 10 D 13 C 14 I 15 W 12 C 8
Feats: Elemental Mage, Eldritch Training, Craft Spell Completion Item, Craft Single-Use Item
Spell Slots: 0-2, 1-3
Spells Readied: 0-3, 1-2
Lesser Runes Known (4): Rune of Affliction, Rune of Armor, Rune of Conjurin, Rune of Warding
Runes Used (3): Rune of Armor, Rune of Conjuring (Summons off of Energy Creature II chart, lasts 3 rounds)
Skill Points (4+2+1) x (4) + 14 = 52 skill points (or 7 maxed skills)

Magister6 vs Runethane6
Mag6
HP: 5d6+18, BAB:+3, AC: 11, Saves: F +4, R +3, W +6
S 10 D 13 C 14 I 16 W 12 C 8
Feats: Psion, Eldritch Training, Craft Spell Completion Item, Craft Single-Use Item, Modify Spell, Energy Mage
Spell Slots: 0-4, 1-4, 2-4, 3-3
Spells Readied: 0-8, 1-5, 2-4, 3-3
Familiarity with Magic (Ex): +2 against spells and +2 AC against spells
Skill Points (35) + (12) = 47 skill points (or 5 maxed skills and 2 leftover points)

Rnt6
HP: 5d6+18, BAB: +3, AC: 15, Saves: F +4, R +3, W +6
S 10 D 13 C 14 I 16 W 12 C 8
Feats: Elemental Mage, Eldritch Training, Craft Spell Completion Item, Craft Single-Use Item, Modify Spell
Spell Slots: 0-3, 1-3, 2-3
Spells Readied: 0-4, 1-3, 2-2
Lesser Runes Known (6): Rune of Affliction, Rune of Armor, Rune of Conjuring, Rune of Knowledge, Rune of Rest, Rune of Warding
Advanced Runes Known (1): Rune of Advanced Conjuring
Runes Used (6): Rune of Armor, Rune of Conjuring (Summons off of Energy Creature II chart, lasts 6 rounds), Invested Rune of Advanced Conjuring (Summons off of Energy Creature V chart, lasts 6 rounds)
Skill Points (49) + (16) = 65 skill points (or 7 maxed skills and 2 leftover points)

Magister9 vs Runethane9
Mag9
HP: 8d6+24, BAB:+4, AC: 11, Saves: F +5, R +4, W +7
S 10 D 13 C 14 I 17 W 12 C 8
Feats: Psion, Eldritch Training, Craft Spell Completion Item, Craft Single-Use Item, Modify Spell, Energy Mage, Creator Mage
Spell Slots: 0-5, 1-5, 2-5, 3-4, 4-2, 5-1
Spells Readied: 0-9, 1-7, 2-5, 3-4, 4-3, 5-2
Familiarity with Magic (Ex): +2 against spells and +2 AC against spells
Skill Points (47) + (18) = 65 skill points (or 5 maxed skills and 5 leftover points)

Rnt9
HP: 8d6+24, BAB: +4, AC: 15, Saves: F +5, R +4, W +7
S 10 D 13 C 14 I 17 W 12 C 8
Feats: Elemental Mage, Eldritch Training, Craft Spell Completion Item, Craft Single-Use Item, Modify Spell, Creator Mage
Spell Slots: 0-4, 1-4, 2-3, 3-3
Spells Readied: 0-5, 1-4, 2-3, 3-2
Lesser Runes Known (6): Rune of Affliction, Rune of Armor, Rune of Conjuring, Rune of Knowledge, Rune of Rest, Rune of Warding
Advanced Runes Known (4): Rune of Advanced Conjuring, Rune of Blasting, Rune of Communication, Rune of Healing
Runes Used (9): Rune of Armor, Rune of Communication x2, Invested Rune of Advanced Conjuring (Summons off of Energy Creature V chart, lasts 9 rounds)
Skill Points (65) + (24) = 89 skill points (or 7 maxed skills and 5 leftover points)

Magister12 vs Runethane12
Mag12
HP: 11d6+30, BAB:+6/+1, AC: 11, Saves: F +6, R +5, W +9
S 10 D 13 C 14 I 18 W 12 C 8
Feats: Psion, Eldritch Training, Craft Spell Completion Item, Craft Single-Use Item, Modify Spell, Energy Mage, Creator Mage, Quicken Spell, Craft Constant Item
Spell Slots: 0-5, 1-6, 2-5, 3-5, 4-4, 5-3, 6-2
Spells Readied: 0-9, 1-8, 2-7, 3-6, 4-5, 5-4, 6-3
Familiarity with Magic (Ex): +2 against spells and +2 AC against spells
Lesser Aspect of Power (Su): Distinct Voice
Skill Points (65) + (18) = 83 skill points (or 5 maxed skills and 8 leftover points)

Rnt12
HP: 11d6+30, BAB: +6/+1, AC: 15, Saves: F +6, R +5, W +9
S 10 D 13 C 14 I 18 W 12 C 8
Feats: Elemental Mage, Eldritch Training, Craft Spell Completion Item, Craft Single-Use Item, Modify Spell, Creator Mage, Craft Constant Item
Spell Slots: 0-4, 1-4, 2-4, 3-3, 4-3
Spells Readied: 0-6, 1-5, 2-4, 3-3, 4-2
Lesser Runes Known (6): Rune of Affliction, Rune of Armor, Rune of Conjuring, Rune of Knowledge, Rune of Rest, Rune of Warding
Advanced Runes Known (5): Rune of Advanced Conjuring, Rune of Blasting, Rune of Communication, Rune of Healing, Rune of Enrichment
Greater Runes Known (2): Elemental Rune, Rune of Greater Conjuring
Runes Used (12): Invested Rune of Armor, Rune of Communication x2, Invested Rune of Greater Conjuring (Summons off of Energy Creature VII chart, lasts 12 rounds)
Familiarity with Magic (Ex): +2 against spells and +2 AC against spells
Skill Points (89) + (24) = 113 skill points (or 7 maxed skills and 8 leftover points)

Analysis:

Overall a magister can greatly exceed a runethane in magical might (though this was never really in contention). It seems a Runethane will generally have 1 'trick' that will generally be beyond the magister's ability to duplicate, though this invariably will be summoning a higher level creature. This power is especially powerful on a runethane because as a touch-trigger rune, you can activate it as a standard action (as opposed to summoning which is a full-round action). Indeed since writing lesser and advanced runes only takes a full-round action, this 'trick' is usable more than once per encounter (full-round to write a new rune, standard to activate it). While cumbersome, you can certainly get a lot of bang for your buck (and at lower levels, you never really run out of summoning gas). At higher levels the greater runes take a full minute to write, so there will be some downtime necessary to rewrite a rune of Greater Conjuration, but given that time it can basically be used 1/encounter (and if it is invested, its rather potent).

I think with more runes and a way to learn new runes via feats the class could be seen as powerful as the Magister. The Magister is just the Wizard, with no option for specialization, a bigger HD, and some nifty flavor (staff, lesser aspect of power). Also note that he loses out on the free Srcibe Scroll feat and the familiar that the wizard have in exchange for the HD. Of course, without arcane/divine restrictions he has access to healing spells and templates and feats give him many more options for his spell slots (ladening with templates, heightened and diminished options, etc).

The final analysis has Magisters as the more powerful class, but Runethanes have a small niche. I'm not sure they would be overpowered with a Medium BAB (so you can play an Arcane Archer-type character with minimal feat-dipping (Martial Weapons, Point Blank, Precise)), but I don't think they are too weak without it. Certainly they are a viable class, though as stated more runes and feats geared for a runethane would make the class more desirable. It's also odd that they have both Open Locks and Disable Device, but Search is noticably absent from their skill list (yet present on the Magister's, who has neither!).

 

[Baron Opal]

It's a great fit for me.

I use the races, classes, pretty much everything except for the setting. My setting is a mix of Dune, Nine Princes In Amber and the accumulated lore of Tekumel and Glorantha. There is also a dash of Memory, Sorrow and Thorn come to think of it. I also use dwarves and rogues in the setting. Elves are present historically but currently extinct. If someone really wanted to I would consider bards or barbarians but I would probably swap out an ability to grant rage if pressed.

I had been out of gaming for a considerable period but had come back after third edition. I was kicking around some ideas but little interested me. Looking over Arcana Unearthed got my creative juices flowing again, and after a while I decided to advance my first real campaign into the next age. Things ended with a bang (a really big bang, curse you Talon!) and it gave me an interesting place to extrapolate from. In short, the verrik had the big empire, the humans, faen and dwarves came from over the sea and settled on the coasts, and the giants and sibeccai came from the south seeking some vague evil they won't talk about. The verrik empire has fallen, the Byzantine equivalent is struggling for identity, and the human / faen / dwarf territories are throwing off their shackles and fighting to make their own kingdoms. The giants are still looking, and helping the other races. For the right price, of course.

I find that the Champions are paladins done right. I do have a couple of quibbles, but AE addressed some of my concerns. A couple of classes have abilities advance every five levels (Champions, Witches) and I think that is too long a time. Every four seems to have the right punch to it (Totem Warrior). I find the flexibility of the spell system to be superior to the PHB. There are some themes that I think should have been more throughly explored, but even so I think its a great spell list (Elemental Vs. Energy spells, conjuration vs summoning, &c.) I would have liked it far more if the ceremonies had been gone into at all, Mystic Secrets notwithstanding.

I am probably going to recast Champions as having one of the metaphysical axes of the campaign as their focus. (Pattern, Maelstrom, Obelisk vs death, life, freedom &c.) The strong animism of the implied setting doesn't mesh well with my setting, so Totem Warriors are going to be retuned to elemental runes rather than animals. There is a strong theme of "runes" having potency in the system, but it really isn't supported beyond the Runethane class. The list of elements, favored weapon, animal affinities, &c. in Glorantha lore is going to be used heavily here. There is going to be a presence of "Natural Philosophy" in the setting. This will demonstrate the usefulness of the giantish ceremonies; also it will provide a reason for where the common folk can afford the minor "magic" items.

My players have no complaints with the Runethane class. They rue the day they cornered a mojh runethane in his lair. Rue, I tell you. The big thing about runethanes is foresight. If you play a runethane you must think ahead. Improvising on the fly while dashing about? That's bad news. Figuring out that the enemy priest is going to march down this path tomorrow at noon? Time to kick ass with a lead foot, my friend. If you have time to prepare, even 5 rounds, you can come out ahead. The only class they have voice complaints about is the Witch. That's a shame since it is so customizable as written and the guidelines are provided to make any other kind you want. I'm thinking of splicing it with the warlock and seeing what I can come up with.

I came up with the rough setting first, read through the AU/AE rules, and then decided the details. Some classes are so customizable (Champion, Witch) they really can add to a setting.

 

[Cam Banks]

I use the races, classes, pretty much everything except for the setting. My setting is a mix of Dune, Nine Princes In Amber and the accumulated lore of Tekumel and Glorantha. There is also a dash of Memory, Sorrow and Thorn come to think of it. I also use dwarves and rogues in the setting. Elves are present historically but currently extinct. If someone really wanted to I would consider bards or barbarians but I would probably swap out an ability to grant rage if pressed.

As a big Amber fan myself, I was interested to see you're making some use of Zelazny's work in your campaign. Thanks for the comments - I like your suggestions on adapting Champions and totem warriors to different metaphysical concepts because of the shift in the setting's focus.

I'm curious about adding the rogue to the class list. Would that tread on any other character's niche? What about adding one of the new WOTC base classes from other books - the scout, for example, seems as if it would fit into AE really well.

Cheers,
Cam

 

[Robert Ranting]

Arcana Evolved is, without a doubt, my preferred rules set for d20, as both a player and a DM. I started playing in my first campaign the fall after Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed came out, and fell in love with the races, classes, spell system, and many of the feats. I began running my first campaign as a DM a few months before the "director's cut" Arcana Evolved came out, and I'm currently running my third campaign in my homebrew setting (and planning the 4th and 5th).

Despite what anyone might tell you, despite the emphasis of the implied setting in the book, there is no reason you can't use the mechanics outside the Diamond Throne. It's only the flavor that becomes troublesome. If you like a particular bit of flavor, keep it, and modify your setting to allow for it's existance. If you like a class' mechanics, but hate the flavor, come up with an alternate explanation for it. If you think you can cludge together something better for your needs by hybridizing it with a core d20 class, or making one from scratch, go ahead and do that.

The Mageblade, Magister, Unfettered and Warmain are pretty much generic enough that you don't need to worry terribly much about them. If there are swords and sorcery in your setting, you can be sure that there will be light dodgy guys, heavy armor guys, and guys who want to use spells when they fight, and guys who just use spells. If you'd rather use the Fighter than the Warmain, then go ahead, there's no real compelling reason to choose one generic beat-stick over another. Give the fighter access to AE's feats, armors, weapons (particularly the simplified proficiency categories) and let him go to town, or even boost it further like ehren37 did. I would however, reccommend keeping the Unfettered, since it's an archetype that D&D doesn't do so well (I've played the Rogue/Fighter going for Duelist, and those first 5 levels were a tale of woe, misery, and inadequacy as the party's elven ranger, not even proficient in the bastard sword she wielded and specced for archery, surpassed my melee prowess in every way).

Every other AE class has some form of baggage which must be taken into account in developing your setting, or re-written to fit, as well as a group of detractors who will complain about it unceasingly for being too weak, too limiting, or too "not what I personally wanted". My advice is to look at the mechanics, seperate from their flavor, and decide whether the class stands on it's own, and whether to keep it. The only opinions that really matter in the final analysis are yours and those of your players.

I could give you more information on my own experience, biases, and houserules, but I think that would only serve to lose the key point that needs to be made. AE is a rules set, and it has a particular flavor. Neither rules nor flavor are sacred. Use what you like, re-write what you don't, and just focus on crafting something that's fun to play.

Robert "If I pushed an agenda, I'd be here all day" Ranting

 

[SWBaxter]

I've never actually played in the Diamond Throne itself. When AU first came out, I created my own setting that included pretty much all the setting-type stuff mentioned in the rulebook, and used that to run my game. Even after DT came out, I liked mine better, though of course I pilfered various ideas. I also have another setting that I've worked up over the years but never had a chance to run, which uses AU classes with PHB races (plus the Giants, 'cause they're cool) in a world mostly ruled by innately powerful, intelligent, high-HD critters such as Dragons, outsiders, etc. Not sure if I'll get a chance to run it any time soon, though.

Another idea I had relatively recently was to run a campaign in which the PCs would play a Gandalf-like role, they'd be sent by some remote outsider to work as "secret agents" against some kind of big bad guy. In this case, I figured most of the world would operate by D&D rules, but the PCs would use AU spellcasting rules to represent their greater control of magic. Not sure if I'll go anywhere with this.

 

[The_Warlock]

I am currently still running my 12-year FR campaign, which has cycled through several editions. When I got AU, I knew I wanted chunks of it in my campaign. While I did some significant revisions when it came to feats, and some classes, Runethane remained relatively untouched, as did Akashic and Witch.

The dwarven runethane is their defacto crafter, and has on more than one occasion made success possible through innovative use of his runes to boost or prep the party. There was an Akashic/Monk who kicked the party in the proverbial prophetic arse, and really got them moving down several paths they needed. Although that character has retired, it provided me several historical hooks that helped explain extent FR groups and organizations more easily and effectively.

I removed paladins from my rules, and instead made an amalgan of AU Champions/Core Paladins since my campaign does utilize gods and alignment, and it's definitely closer to the Champion in overal design, and it works grand.

So, in the end, I'd say yes, it's fairly straightforward to use the AU/AE stuff without the attendant setting. And mixing and matching it with whatever core/expanded classes fit your campaign view should work fine.

 

[Baron Opal]

I'm curious about adding the rogue to the class list. Would that tread on any other character's niche? What about adding one of the new WOTC base classes from other books - the scout, for example, seems as if it would fit into AE really well.

One of the first criticisms that I had with AU was the lack of a "gutter rat" type of character. Unfettereds can make good rogues. They are a skirmish fighter, highly mobile, so it fits a Captain Blood / Robin Hood archetype well. Akashics are the de facto "skill monkey". They get a bucketful of skill points and can even customize their skills on the fly to an extent. Either one can be made easily into a sneaky character but they just don't have the "back-stabbing thief" vibe that the rogue class does.

I don't have Complete Warrior (?) so I can't comment on the scout. Stock unfettered, wood witches or totem warriors make for good mobile, outdoors-y characters.

N.B.: I love prestige classes. I think they're a great concept, and I made about a dozen or so when I became comfortable with 3.0 and read some of the splats. I have found that AE doesn't really need them. Each class has such a vibrant theme to it that the specialization implied by a prestige class doesn't mesh at all. Any variability you might want actually is easier through multiclassing. That said, there are some very interesting prestige classes in the AE book that would make you consider them (Crystal Warrior, Sonamancer). Even so, I've made a few prestige classes for my game. All of them are for the inner circle of an organization (Magi of the Pearl Tower, the Gorgon-Blooded) or, potentially, the expression of a thematic metaphysical power (Pattern Shard Initiate, Stalwart of the Eternal Obelisk). There are precisely zero prestige classes in my game to accomidate a archtypal gap (Mystic Theurge, Eldritch Knight). I think that is a great strength of the rules set.

Strangely enough, it is easier, mechanically, to build a prestige class because the classes are so balanced. You don't have classes with lopsided abilities, like the sorceror. Part of the balance of prestige classes isn't in the entry requirements but rather what you are giving up by not taking the base class.

 

[Son_of_Thunder]

I love AE/AU spellcasting

We're two months into my homebrew re-engineered with core 3.5 and AE. This isn't a kitchen sinky feel. This is a deliberately crafted game utilizing core plus srd and AE. I have the mohj and dracha as the invading bad guy race but the players can take the race as well. If they do they face some prejudice and outright hostility in some areas of the campaign.

The player's are having a blast and so am I.

 

[theredrobedwizard]

See, the problem with me and Sturdy is this; basically, according to the AE Forums, when you get sturdy, you get to add your Con Mod to hit points twice that level; which includes your normal Con Mod to HP.

When *I* read the feat, I saw it as toughness, but instead of adding 3, you add twice your Con Mod.

Human Warmain 1, 18 Con, Max HP.

Their interpretation: 20 HP (12 [base]+4 [Con Mod]+4 [Sturdy])
My interpretation: 24 HP (12 [base]+4 [Con Mod]+8 [Sturdy])

---

Anyway, Cam, I actually played in an "Arcana Evolved for Dragonlance" campaign about a year ago, with mixed success. I don't think the spellcasting style fit the setting, but other than that, I dig Knights of Solamnia as Warmain/Ritual Warriors.

-TRRW