Baron Opal
First Post
I'm not sure when you checked the boards, but the current interpretation of Sturdy is your latter example; twice constitution bonus added on top of your level and regular constitution bonus. It is certainly the way I play it.
Arcana Evolved with another setting
- Thread starter Cam Banks
- Start date
I worry less about "balance" these days. I don't mind throwing all the classes together and letting economic forces do the rest. If Warmains are a weaker class, fewer people will play them but I might still use them to make npcs (not everybody in the world is going to be optimized) and if somebody decides to make a Sibeccai with a 20 Con and thinks Warmain is a good class to start out in, I'm all for that too.
Robert Ranting
First Post
Whatever the "official" version of Sturdy is, I run it as per example two (an 18 Con gives you +8 HP from Sturdy in addition to your HD+ Con mod from your level). If your constitution score is raised or altered by adding ability score bonus points or magic, this is also taken into account, granting you additional HP from Sturdy. If the above Warmain puts on a +6 item of Constitution, then he gains an additional +6 HP per Sturdy feat.
I had one PC attempt to take advantage of this. He was a 32 point buy character who in 7 levels multiclassed Warmain, Champion of Life, Bear Totem Warrior, and Sibeccai racial levels so that he could 1) Have a 22 Con without magic, and 2) spread out his feats so that he never got two at the same level (since you can only take Sturdy once per level), while taking it as often as possible. He had something in the neighborhood of 117-130 HP at 7th level, when he picked a fight with the admiral of the giantish navy (who had equipment that gave him water breathing, a swim speed, and the ability to see through murky water) and was dragged underwater in a grapple and drowned.
I'm not sure if you've ever run the Drowning Rules extensively, but let me tell you, it takes a lot of rolls to drown someone with a 22 Constitution, and the player insisted that we keep rolling the grapple checks to see if he could get away. I think it took close to fifteen minutes of rolling dice to resolve his slow, agonizing death by asphyxiation, and the rest of the players were more than a little disturbed by the quiet brutality of it all.
...No one in my local group has tried to exploit Sturdy since.
Robert "He Might Have Lived If He Hadn't Wandered Off On His Own" Ranting
I had one PC attempt to take advantage of this. He was a 32 point buy character who in 7 levels multiclassed Warmain, Champion of Life, Bear Totem Warrior, and Sibeccai racial levels so that he could 1) Have a 22 Con without magic, and 2) spread out his feats so that he never got two at the same level (since you can only take Sturdy once per level), while taking it as often as possible. He had something in the neighborhood of 117-130 HP at 7th level, when he picked a fight with the admiral of the giantish navy (who had equipment that gave him water breathing, a swim speed, and the ability to see through murky water) and was dragged underwater in a grapple and drowned.
I'm not sure if you've ever run the Drowning Rules extensively, but let me tell you, it takes a lot of rolls to drown someone with a 22 Constitution, and the player insisted that we keep rolling the grapple checks to see if he could get away. I think it took close to fifteen minutes of rolling dice to resolve his slow, agonizing death by asphyxiation, and the rest of the players were more than a little disturbed by the quiet brutality of it all.
...No one in my local group has tried to exploit Sturdy since.
Robert "He Might Have Lived If He Hadn't Wandered Off On His Own" Ranting
WhatGravitas
Explorer
I think it changed. The original idea of it was Ex. 1, but later (and I think it's confirmed in the AE book) the Ex. 2 became "correct". And I like it moreBaron Opal said:
Cam Banks
Adventurer
Lord Tirian said:I think it changed. The original idea of it was Ex. 1, but later (and I think it's confirmed in the AE book) the Ex. 2 became "correct". And I like it more
It certainly helps the warmain fill the "tank with lots of hit points" niche very early on, yes. I also like the idea that if your Constitution bonus changes, the hit point benefit from Sturdy does.
From the sounds of it, most people are also keeping the AE races as well. I'm inclined not to - it isn't that I have a problem with them, since they're fairly well presented, but I'd like to use a more Shadowrun/Earthdawn set of races - humans, elves, dwarves, trolls, etc.
Cheers,
Cam
Voadam
Legend
Cam Banks said:
Elves, dwarves, and orcs are easy under core, trolls are a little tough (half ogres with flavor changed to green skin and possible horns? WoW jungle trolls?). Windlings could be sprytes from AU/AE. Not sure for obsidimen. Lots of options for the T'Skrang or whatever the lizardmen are called, including changing the flavor of the AU/AE dragonmen.
GoodKingJayIII
First Post
You can take a lot of whats presented in AU/AE and separate it from the whole body and use it in your game. Like the races but not the classes? Easy to divorce one from the other. Enjoy the magic system? It can be ported over with a modicum of effort. Enjoy combat rites? Apply them to the Fighter/Monk/etc.
It's a great book. I wish I'd gotten to play/run more games with it. Maybe I will again in the future.
It's a great book. I wish I'd gotten to play/run more games with it. Maybe I will again in the future.
Odhanan
Adventurer
phindar said:
Same thing here. Since players of various character types are different, their ability to understand and thus use rules and options to build their characters during the campaign will vary greatly. Add to this the variations of equipment per PC, the various uses one could make or not make of this or that character trait, and the actual circumstances, situations, opponents, role-playing, etc situations thrown in the game as well as his basic style of adjudication of the DM, and comparing character classes, races etc in a vacuum to establish their pseudo "game balance" becomes pretty much useless theory.
Some people will suck at building a Warmain. Others will shine at playing a Ritual Warrior. Depends. 'nough said.
Robert Ranting
First Post
One mechanical loophole that I realized which comes up in using D&D races with AE classes. Beware of the dwarf akashic or wolverine totem warrior, who is perfectly capable of maxing out tumble and using it while wearing heavy armor (since heavy armor only prevents tumbling if the armor reduces your land speed, a dwarf is exempt from any penalties for tumbling in heavy armor.) A friend of mine ran an AE game which used dwarves, halflings, and half-orcs as races, and one of his players had a dwarf akashic, clad in a definitive harness tumbling willy-nilly about the battlefield while wielding a halberd and tripping people. Some people might consider this a little silly, so it is worth warning you about, I think That aside, I think it would be cool to see a Dwarf Warmain/Dwarven Defender, since he'd have d12 HD for all his levels, and Sturdy to make him all the more resilient.
One upside to using the AE races and D&D classes is that you're far more likely to see half-orcs in a spellcasting role. Firstly, because they would make excellent melee-focused witches and mageblades (even though they get a hit to Charisma, their casting is going to focus on healing and self-buffs, not offensive spells with DCs that matter), and secondly because multiclassing between spellcasting classes with different primary attributes allows a class to choose either one as the primary. Want a wisdom based magister? Dip one level into witch or greenbond or totem speaker(From the Transcendenc supplement) and you've neatly side-stepped the problem of your Intelligence penalty.
Halflings will also find themselves stepping up to the front line a bit more often, as the Unfettered class gives them a full-BAB option that also allows them to crank up their AC to obscene levels from parry, equipment, and bonus feats. The Compensate for Size feat and the new Escape Artist check rules from AE are a godsend to small PCs who still want to mix it up in melee.
Gnomes...well...Gnomes are kinda awful, IMHO, and made more so by the relatively few illusion spells in AE. There is however, one particular gem for them in "Seeming of Form" a spell that can make a chair appear to be a bastard sword, and function like one against any target *convinced* that it's a bastard sword by failing their Will save.
Elves and Half-Elves will no doubt be drawn to the mix of magic and melee presented by both the mageblade and the witch. Unfortunately, Arcane Archer doesn't play nice with the AE casters and their dependency on bulky focus items. Then again, A.A. is something of a weak "iconic" PrC to begin with. About the only class I can't see Elves adapting to terribly well is the Ritual Warrior, and maybe the Champion of Life sub-class, since they rely upon their Constitution scores being relatively high for some of their abilities.
I could probably offer more advice if I knew more about the setting you're working on.
Robert "Decided to Share Some Opinions Afterall" Ranting
That aside, I think it would be cool to see a Dwarf Warmain/Dwarven Defender, since he'd have d12 HD for all his levels, and Sturdy to make him all the more resilient.One upside to using the AE races and D&D classes is that you're far more likely to see half-orcs in a spellcasting role. Firstly, because they would make excellent melee-focused witches and mageblades (even though they get a hit to Charisma, their casting is going to focus on healing and self-buffs, not offensive spells with DCs that matter), and secondly because multiclassing between spellcasting classes with different primary attributes allows a class to choose either one as the primary. Want a wisdom based magister? Dip one level into witch or greenbond or totem speaker(From the Transcendenc supplement) and you've neatly side-stepped the problem of your Intelligence penalty.
Halflings will also find themselves stepping up to the front line a bit more often, as the Unfettered class gives them a full-BAB option that also allows them to crank up their AC to obscene levels from parry, equipment, and bonus feats. The Compensate for Size feat and the new Escape Artist check rules from AE are a godsend to small PCs who still want to mix it up in melee.
Gnomes...well...Gnomes are kinda awful, IMHO, and made more so by the relatively few illusion spells in AE. There is however, one particular gem for them in "Seeming of Form" a spell that can make a chair appear to be a bastard sword, and function like one against any target *convinced* that it's a bastard sword by failing their Will save.
Elves and Half-Elves will no doubt be drawn to the mix of magic and melee presented by both the mageblade and the witch. Unfortunately, Arcane Archer doesn't play nice with the AE casters and their dependency on bulky focus items. Then again, A.A. is something of a weak "iconic" PrC to begin with. About the only class I can't see Elves adapting to terribly well is the Ritual Warrior, and maybe the Champion of Life sub-class, since they rely upon their Constitution scores being relatively high for some of their abilities.
I could probably offer more advice if I knew more about the setting you're working on.
Robert "Decided to Share Some Opinions Afterall" Ranting
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