Re: pay attention and learn to admit when you're wrong!
Negative Zero said:
most of what follows will just be me ranting, so be guided accordingly.
Neg, you're stirring up a subject that was being put to rest with a bunch of silly, inflammatory nonsense, is what you're doing. Well, some folks aren't content leave well enough alone, so here we go...
Negative Zero said:
i agree with volcivar when he says that it is extremely annoying when people blatantly disregard comments and then turn around and make thier point based on a previously disproven issue.
Great, but since that isn't actually what happened, it seems to have no bearing here.
it's as if they just ignore the fact that what they're complaining about really isn't an issue, or that they've misunderstood, or that they developed misguided expectations.
A classic attack of obtuseness.
So you think you are the arbiter of what is or isn't an issue for all gamers, is that it? Here are the differences between us:
I've supported my position at every step. I presented my arguement for why I think it's an issue for me and potentially other gamers. I presented the design diary quotes that were the basis of my expectations, and the responses have generally been to point out that death is a bigger pain in the butt, while the quote definitely spoke of death as if it should have a degree of permanency.
(Now, lemme guess; someone's rebuttal is sure to be "Well, Monte pointed out that death will be permanent--for kings that have been dead for centuries! See? That's all he meant. Can't fault'im for people leaping wildly to the conclusion that he was actually implying death should have a degree of permanency for
players." rofl)
And the most significant difference between us: I've responded to my opponents' fairly, and I've been reasonably civil in the verbal sparring up to this point. So has Volcivar, come to think of it. I've even conceded a number of good points to the opposition.
what's the big deal with admitting that you were wrong?
You're right; no big deal at all...which means you'll feel free to admit you were wrong because I say so, right? Do you see how obtuse that statement is now, Neg?
If not, then here's the thing: I often feel the exact same frustration with people who totally disagree with my strongest convictions. What an eye-opener, huh? Man, you deserve the mother-of-all-noogies right about now!
Your entire rant here seems to be based on the notion that because you don't see someone's point, it's been disproven and they should abandon their position.
Obviously, I don't stop defending my position because I don't happen to think I'm wrong--in fact, I'm certain I'm not. I know I'm not the only person who might've read that design diary entry from Monte and will find it to be misleading in regards to how AU actually handles death and disfigurement.
I think it's reasonable for someone to read that entry and think that he's actually saying something other than "People should die. It's a fact. A world with no death diminishes the rewards for success and the consequences of failure--of course, I just mean musty old mcguffins stay dead, not anyone who's only died in the last year or so. Certainly not PC's."
But of course, nobody will rub their chin and say, "Hey, Felon you actually have a point there--that quote isn't all that hard to misconstrue. I guess I didn't see that at first because I never had a problem with players getting raised all the time. People who do might be buying that book with false--yet reasonably derived--expectations." Nobody will say that because nobody wants to give an inch, much less admit they're wrong. Right Neg?
Someone quoted Monte where all he said was essentially, "i'll make ressurection harder" and then went on to complain that it's not hard enough. it's real simple: is it harder? if the answer is yes, then he not only accomplished what he set out to do, but he also lived up to his promises.
Your simple equation is negated by the fact that the quote does strongly imply permanency, not inconvenience. And yes, you can mislead a person with won't you don't say, and people can fault you for a sin of omission.
if all Monte did was made all the Raise/Res spells one level higher, then he would have lived up to his claim. as it is, he's done a hell of a lot more than that! so what the hell is there for you to complain about? that he didn't live up to your expectations? he never said that he would. as it is, he only has to live up to his expectations.
Here's where you're getting ridiculous and inflammatory. This is a commercial product, not something for his personal usage. It is indeed reasonable for people who shell out money for it to have it live up to their expectations when those expectations were generated by the author's statements.
what makes you think that you're so important that he must satisfy you? you're one person, and as much as you (or i) may like to think differently, you (or i) are not all that important. the majority, on the other hand, is. one person, is not a majority. sure it's not fun being in the minnority, but sometimes, that's life. deal. blaming someone who really has no obligation to care about you, just makes you sound childish and spoilt.
How do you know I'm the minority? Because nobody in this thread is siding with me? Maybe don't want to say something when they know that they're in a thread with a lot of fanboys hanging around?
Yes, I'm one individual--just like you. I expressed my extreme disappointment in this aspect of AU. Guess what? I'm totally entitled to do that, Neg, regardless of whether or not I'm in the minority. Giving individual gamers a voice is one of the reasons ENWorld forums is here.
if what you wanted to do was simply express your opinion, then you should be more careful how you word your statements so they don't sound like accusations. even so, when you make even a statement, and you're in the minority, you kinda have to expect a lot of opposition.
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I express an opinion knowing full well exactly how many people will disagree or agree beforehand...
Granted, I know that there a lot of people still on a honeymoon with AU, and they're posting rave reviews all over the Internet without giving it time to cool off and view it objectively, so I do expect some fanboy opposition. OTOH, I do expect a few people to read my posts and comment objectively. From everything you've said above, where you make points that I've already addressed, it seems you did a quick skim-n'-blast.
I say to you, if you want to take part in a spirited discussion, then put on your verbal sparring gear. Actually read what the person's saying and come up with well-supported counter-arguements, rather than trolling for responses with a line like "why can't people who are expressing disappointment in things I don't care about be quiet and accept that they've been disproven?"
in any event, this meandered over a lot of things that i really didn't mean to talk about or say, but i'm like that, i guess. all i really wanted to say is: it's very annoying when you/your statements get ignored.
Yes it is. I feel your pain.
Now you know I guess; don't what to be ignored? Provoke a response with a lot of inflammatory, inaccurate #%@&.
