Arcana Unearthed: Pro's and Con's

[Wombat]

...and after this thread is over we can have a calm, rationale discussion of The Riddle of Steel

Time for everyone to back down from arguments and accept the following:

Some people like AU

Some people do not

Do not get angry because someone does or does not like it

We are gamers. We do this for fun.

Remember the secret phrase:

Ohm ... dammit ... ohm ...

 

[ascendance]

Having looked through AU, I am crestfallen to find not only a Raise the Dead spell, but a lesser and greater version of that spell. OK, they're a couple of levels higher than their D&D counterparts, but there's a Revivification spell that's the same level as the PHB's Raise Dead. It only raises a character that's been dead a few minutes (or hours with the heightened version) but that's good enough to ensure that you won't be bidding any fallen comrades farewell if you have a 9th-level character standing around with it memorized. Death's clammy hand is not all that hard to rebuke in AU at all, and the consequences for failure or self-sacrifice are nothing permanent or irrevocable. It may be a bit more expensive to bring someone back to life, but it is safe to say that in Arcana Unearthed characters are not signicantly harder to cure, raise, or heal than in D&D.

Oh, and as for that grizzled old veteran with the peg leg? The one to whom we're not supposed to say "why didn't you just pay the few thousand gold for a regenerate spell"? There is a Regeneration spell in AU, and to my calculations (caster level x 80) it only costs 1200gp

My friends, love or hate the rest of AU, that's just blatant false advertising. [/B]

Read the rules carefully.

Yes, there is a Raise the Dead, which has stricter time limits, and whose level loss cannot be countered in any way. Anyway, D&D is such a lethal game that you DO need Raise the Dead. Whether you think so or not.

As for Regeneration, its a Exotic Spell, which needs a feat. One whole feat just to pick up a spell. I could pick up Regeneration with a feat, or I could pick up, oh, Bring Down the Moon, which heals everyone in an area, restores spell slots, and allows everyone to use their abilities again.

 

[ascendance]

I don't see how people can claim the balance in the AU magic system is completely out of whack. Low level AU magic users get an extra die of damage here and there. Boo hoo hoo. High level magisters are going to get, to use the term, pwned by D&D wizards.

I find AU is completely lacking all my favourite completely busted spells. I can't Time Stop, Maze, Force Cage, Harm, or Heal, just to name a couple. The Heal-equivalent in AU is a 9th level spell. Also, True Strike is now Exotic, making it much harder to come by (though worth the feat for Mage Blades). If anything, magic in 3.5E got heavily heavily upgunned by allowing most ranged touch attack spells to have no save. Combo that with the plethora of PrCs that allow touch attacks to be made at range, and quickened True Strikes, and you have some highly abusive stock clerics and mages.

 

[ascendance]

Heh.

I find this debate amusing since I absolutely LOVE AU.

But then, I don't like D&D's core assumptions.

Also, this debate reminds me of my own rants. I've never met a Mongoose product I didn't dislike. I've thought every single Mongoose book I've looked through had bad art, crappy layout, and flawed rules. I felt the same way about other products people have loved, like Dragonstar. I think that AU, while not perfect, is at least not an eyesore, unlike some other gaming products I could name.

I wonder how many of you in the thread who are ranting about the art in AU think Mongoose products are just fine.

 

[Felon]

Yes, there is a Raise the Dead, which has stricter time limits, and whose level loss cannot be countered in any way.

So the only point you're contrbuting here is that AU death is a bit more inconvenient than it is in vanilla D&D? That territory's been covered extensively. You're not exactly breathing new life into the topic.

Anyway, D&D is such a lethal game that you DO need Raise the Dead.

Feh. Says you...and without qualifying the remark, no less. It doesn't hold up.

The truth is, D&D's hit point system actually makes it one of the less lethal games around, and in fact fans of other game systems often criticize if for lacking a credible degree of lethality. (think GURPS, Hero System Rolemaster, Harn, Shadowrun, Deadlands). And there are even fewer ways around death in those games--usually none in fact. On top of that, characters in those games take even more time to generate and develop. Yet--amazingly enough--people have had plenty of fun playing them, often specifically because mistakes can have real consequences.

I find AU is completely lacking all my favourite completely busted spells. I can't Time Stop, Maze, Force Cage, Harm, or Heal, just to name a couple.

Yes, but you should take some pleasure in knowing that fireball--the attack spell that patently outclasses all of those low-damage single-target ranged touch spells--is not only still present in AU, but it's available to far more classes.

As a DM, I sure hope calling off initiatives in AU doesn't amount to one Sorcerous Blast coming out of the hopper after another. We'll see.

 

[Bagpuss]

Anyway, D&D is such a lethal game that you DO need Raise the Dead. Whether you think so or not.

Why?

Cyberpunk is considerably more lethal than D&D and you can't Raise Dead in that. Nore do you miss it.
Flashing Blades is considerably more lethal than D&D and you can't Raise Dead in that. Nore do you miss it.
Shadowrun is considerably more lethal than D&D and you can't Raise Dead in that. Nore do you miss it.
Twilight 2000 is considerably more lethal than D&D and you can't Raise Dead in that. Nore do you miss it.
Call of Cthuhlu is considerably more lethal than D&D and you can't Raise Dead in that. Nore do you miss it.
Insert none D20 system here is considerably more lethal than D&D and you can't Raise Dead in that. Nore do you miss it.

 

[Tsyr]

Why?

Cyberpunk is considerably more lethal than D&D and you can't Raise Dead in that. Nore do you miss it.
Flashing Blades is considerably more lethal than D&D and you can't Raise Dead in that. Nore do you miss it.
Shadowrun is considerably more lethal than D&D and you can't Raise Dead in that. Nore do you miss it.
Twilight 2000 is considerably more lethal than D&D and you can't Raise Dead in that. Nore do you miss it.
Call of Cthuhlu is considerably more lethal than D&D and you can't Raise Dead in that. Nore do you miss it.
Insert none D20 system here is considerably more lethal than D&D and you can't Raise Dead in that. Nore do you miss it.

Errrm, actualy, the "Nore do you miss it" bit is your opinion only. I don't miss it in some, but in others I definetly do.

 

[drnuncheon]

Yes, but you should take some pleasure in knowing that fireball--the attack spell that patently outclasses all of those low-damage single-target ranged touch spells--is not only still present in AU, but it's available to far more classes.

Hmm.

Stock D&D fireball casters: Sorcerer and Wizard.
Stock AU casters: Magister. (And some kinds of witch, but not as a fire spell, and only after 9th level.)

Anyone else who wants to be able to cast a sorcerous blast "fireball" in AU needs to pay a feat - either 'Complex Spells (3rd level)', 'Energy Mage', or 'Elemental Mage'. Not everybody's going to want to do that - greenbonds and runethanes don't get any bonus feats making it a tough choice, and the mageblade has melee to keep up with as well.

J

 

[Bagpuss]

Errrm, actualy, the "Nore do you miss it" bit is your opinion only. I don't miss it in some, but in others I definetly do.

In which? I can't think of a game that would benifit from the addition of a Raise Dead type effect. Hmm actually thinking about it you can Raise Dead in Call of Cthuhlu its just not a very wise thing to do.

 

[Dinkeldog]

Bagpuss, Shadowrun could benefit from raise dead like nobody's business. Especially with how long it takes to build a character, and that if you're not playing a super hyped reflexes guy, you can easily get wasted without having any input into the situation. That severely blows chunks.

I think the 6-time limit (and that only if you've got a truename) keeps it in the realm of possible while you're interested in the character and easily let go when you're done with it.

My ultimate goal is that the game should be fun. Having characters die with nothing you could do about it, or even if you just make a mistake and then not being able to continue exploring the character isn't fun for me. If it is fun for you, then, uh, remove the raise dead-like spells from the game, and there's no raising, right?

I'd rather have rules available that I can rule out, then having no rules available, or worse, have a snotty game designer telling me that I play the game wrong because I want that possibility.