Arcane Disciple balance questions

Sian

First Post
Playing an Acane Disciple alternate Cleric, and I'm wondering if things balance out.. On the surface, it seems I'm giving up a little too much to get what I'm getting. Can anyone put together an analysis of this?

losing:
1 step on hit die (d8 to D6)
cleric domains and the bonus spells/day that come with that
spontaneous casting of heal/harm
turning

gaining:
better class skills
2 skill points/level
magic domain as available spells
1 wizard/bard spell (of one level lower than highest casting level) per level
 

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Where's this "Arcane Disciple" core class from please?

The last thing you're gaining, "1 wizard/bard spell (of one level lower than highest casting level) per level", you get to add to your spell list 1 spell from the Wizard or Bard spell list at every level? That seems very potent indeed.

AR
 

Ooh! I can help out. I'm currently playing an Arcane Disciple at the moment, actually.

Arcane Disciple was a variant Cleric from the recent Spellcasting issue of Dragon. The idea behind it is that it's a Cleric that chooses to revere Magic itself as a force above any other- higher than even the gods. Rather than getting Domains and Domain spells, the Arcane Disciple has a class ability called "Arcane to Divine"- every level, they choose one Arcane spell to be added to their spell list, and is forever a Divine spell for them. The only limitations are that it has to be at least one level lower than the highest level spell you can cast. So, at 20th level, you'll have all of the Cleric spells, as well as 20 arcane spells of your choice, from 0-level to 8th-level, that you cast as Divine spells. It's an interesting concept, although, like all of the other variant class, kinda sucks.

After all, your Hit Die decreases to a d6. You lose proficiency with Heavy Armor. You get less spells per day, since you no longer have Domain spells- although that's minor. You also don't get any Domain granted powers. However, since the class bases itself more on Magic than upholding alignments or religions, you lose the ability to Turn or Rebuke Undead.

On the upside, though, you gain more skill points, and have a much better selection of Class skills. The spells, over time, will be much more advantageous than if you had Domain spells, because you can choose whichever ones you want, and generally the majority of Domain spells are already on the Cleric spell list. So you'll be getting a lot more spells that you'd want to use. Plus, all of the spells on the Magic Domain are already considered to be on your spell list, meaning that you can cast Identify, Antimagic Field, and even Mordenkainen's Disjunction (at a high enough level, that is) without having to use up one of your Arcane to Divine spells. Oh, and another huge plus is that you gain Bonus feats like a Wizard- so you get an extra Metamagic or Item Creation feat at levels 5, 10, 15, and 20.

The main disadvantage of choosing your own Arcane spells every level is that they have to be a level behind all of your other spells. So you have to wait until level 7 to get Fireball, or Fly, or whatever, and you'll never be able to get Time Stop or Wish or Meteor Swarm- but hey, you're a lot better off than if you were just a normal Cleric.

When I started making this character, I soon realized that somethign about it just didn't seem balanced with the normal Cleric. Most of it balanced out, but it was still lacking something. I talked to my DM, and we decided it would be balanced if they still had the ability to Turn or Rebuke Undead- it doesn't quite fit the character concept, but the class just isn't balanced without it. So we stuck that back in. Aside from that, the class has been great for me.

So far, I'm an 11th-level Lawful Neutral Arcane Disciple of Wee Jas (the goddess of Death and Magic). The Arcane spells I've taken were Arcane Mark and Touch of Fatigue (0-level), Magic Missile and Ray of Enfeeblement (1st-level, both have served me very well), Touch of Idiocy and Alter Self (2nd-level), Haste and Vampiric touch (3rd-level), Dimension Door and Greater Invisibility (4th-level), and Feeblemind (5th-level). I've got maxed out Knowledge: Arcana, Knowledge: Religion, Spellcraft, Use Magic Device and Concentration (all of which are Class skills, and then some, for the Arcane Disciple). I've got Scribe Scroll, Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms & Armor, Silent Spell, Still Spell, Reach Spell, and I'm planning on getting Forge Ring next level. All in all, the class has been working really well for me. I really like the character concept.

(Also, it'd be a funny thing to do to your PCs- have them come across a treasure horde with Divine scrolls of Magic Missile and Fireball. They won't know what the heck is going on!)

If you've got any more questions about the Arcane Disciple, and want to talk to someone who's used one, Email me or something.
 

Thanks for the closer look there.

One of my main concerns is that 'anyspell' can make up for a lot of this later on. But I guess not quite as well, and the flexibility is nice at lower levels.

I'm just windering if it might be a bit too much to give up. losing hitpoints AND turning AND spontaneous conversion AND domains

Playing an AD of Wee-Jas in the current game, so I wouldn't have been able to turn or spontaneously cast cures anyway. :D

I am definitely feeling the lack of domain bonus spells and domain special abilities. Which brings up the next question.. if I take a few levels of a prestige class that gives bonus domains, what happens? Do I not get anything from that? do I get the domain's power? (I think I ended up getting the magic domain's special ability already)
We're still only 2nd level. ^^; At least my character's got a nice half-ogre bodyguard, and is pretty wicked with a scythe himself.
 

Sian said:
I'm just windering if it might be a bit too much to give up. losing hitpoints AND turning AND spontaneous conversion AND domains

That's why we decided to leave in Turning. It just isn't balanced without it.

You'll definitely be feeling the lack of power at earlier levels, but later on, when you're casting Dimension Door and Ray of Enfeeblement and Disintegrate whenever you want, it's the ENEMIES who'll be feeling it, if you get my drift.

Anyway, the majority of the class has worked well in our games, mainly because of our House Rules. We use a Mana system, and so nobody has to prepare spells ahead of time- so Spontaneous Casting isn't an issue. (The mana system simplifies the game and just makes it a lot more fun to play, in my opinion.) Also, we instituted a House Rule that Clerics get an extra Domain at 10th and 20th level- but in regards to my class, we decided that the Arcane Disciple would have the spells added to his spell list, and he'd gain the Domain ability, he just wouldn't gain any extra spells per day because of it (since he doesn't have domain spell slots to begin with). But for all other intents and purposes, he's got the Domain just as much as the next Cleric. (Since, after all, the Arcane Disciple pretty much has the Magic Domain in this fashion already, just not the Domain Power.) That way, you wouldn't lose any power if you wanted to gain a Prestige Domain- you'd still be able to cast the extra spells and get the power. In fact, you'd kinda be getting the better end of the deal, since now you can prepare as many Domain spells as you want, rather than just once per day.

Hey, it sounds like your character is developing a lot like mine! My character has a Bodyguard too, although I'm a much higher level, and mine is the result of Leadership (it just sounds like yours is too low of a level to have been gotten from Leadership). After our last adventure (where my character was killed, and brought back due to our House Rule of one free True Ressurection), my character went to his church and demanded a bodyguard. So, now, he's got a 4th-level Fighter/5th-level Master of Chains as a bodyguard. He's got Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes and uses a Spiked Chain, so he's really freakin' awesome.
 

UltimaGabe said:
That's why we decided to leave in Turning. It just isn't balanced without it.

I'm not sure if I'll be as lucky to get turning (or rebuking in this case) back.

UltimaGabe said:
Hey, it sounds like your character is developing a lot like mine! My character has a Bodyguard too, although I'm a much higher level, and mine is the result of Leadership (it just sounds like yours is too low of a level to have been gotten from Leadership). After our last adventure (where my character was killed, and brought back due to our House Rule of one free True Ressurection), my character went to his church and demanded a bodyguard. So, now, he's got a 4th-level Fighter/5th-level Master of Chains as a bodyguard. He's got Improved Trip, Combat Reflexes and uses a Spiked Chain, so he's really freakin' awesome.

Yeah, mine nearly went that route too, but is instead going to go for an oversized bastard sword (3d8 damage) fellow PC with pre-aggreed connection in this case.
 

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