Arcane / Divine parallel progression for more than 10 levels?

[rgard]

Uh, I am sure there are even more broken builds. But I am in a campaign thats now running for four years, and I am not willing to discuss Ur-priest / MT combos ... I am more looking for experience / suggestions from a campaign with a more standard power level ...

Herzog, thats exactly what I am thinking ... overall, the MT wasnt too powerful so far, but we have seen a definite increase in power from level 8 to 15 ... obviously, before allowing the arcane hierophant to complement the MT, I would allow the 15 level MT ... but I am not even sure whether thats a good idea

IMHO, the Ur-Priest/MT combo isn't all that broken. It's brutal to qualify for and you are capped out at one 9th level divine spell unless you have an outrageously high wisdom. Over the long course of play, you are better off being a cleric and advancing the MT PrC in epic play.

For the OP, I would take levels in other classes (wizard and cleric) on the way to 20th character level. At 21st character level go epic MT. I don't know of a WotC epic MT progression (somebody point it out if there is one please), but as the descriptions of epic prcs go, it's reasonable to assume an epic MT continues the dual casting progression. Personally, I wouldn't give any bonus feats (most of the epic prcs have them) or give the bonus feat every 5 levels.

Edit: Oops, you are the OP!

Thanks,
Rich

 

[gavagai]

it's reasonable to assume an epic MT continues the dual casting progression. Personally, I wouldn't give any bonus feats (most of the epic prcs have them) or give the bonus feat every 5 levels.

...ah, of course, my calculation above was faulty, because a a character at lvl 20 (Clr 3, Sorc 4, MT 13) would be 3 caster levels ahead (though not spells) ahead of a standard character.

So, to quote rgard, does anyone have the epic build for MT?

 

[Slaved]

If mystic theurge did extend farther for this character then what would the two options be?

Option 1) Sorcerer 4/Cleric 3/Mystic theurge 13
This gives casting as a 17th level sorcerer (8th level spells) and 16th level casting of a cleric (8th level spells).
Hit dice: 4d4 (sorcerer) + 3d8 (cleric) + 13d4 (mystic theurge)
Base attack Bonus: +10
Saves: 8 6 15

Option 2) Sorcerer 4/Cleric 6/Mystic theurge 10
This gives casting as a 14th level sorcerer (7th level spells) and 16th level casting of a cleric (8th level spells).
Hit dice: 4d4 (sorcerer) + 6d8 (cleric) + 10d4 (mystic theurge)
Base attack Bonus: +11
Saves: 9 6 16

Option 3) Sorcerer 7/Cleric 3/Mystic theurge 10
This gives casting as a 17th level sorcerer (8th level spells) and 13th level casting of a cleric (7th level spells).
Hit dice: 7d4 (sorcerer) + 3d8 (cleric) + 10d4 (mystic theurge)
Base attack Bonus: +10
Saves: 8 6 15

I would guess that the big contenders are option 1) and 2) though. The extra spellcasting for the sorcerer side is very powerful while the extra cleric levels net some little bonuses like the extra iterative attack on a full attack.

For this character in particular would it be too strong? What if those extra levels in mystic theurge required having 5 or more levels in sorcerer?

Option 4) Sorcerer 5/Cleric 3/Mystic theurge 12
This gives casting as a 17th level sorcerer (8th level spells) and 15th level casting of a cleric (8th level spells).
Hit dice: 5d4 (sorcerer) + 3d8 (cleric) + 12d4 (mystic theurge)
Base attack Bonus: +10
Saves: 8 6 15

 

[Magesmiley]

If I recall correctly, the epic progression for mystic theurge (levels 11+ in the class) alternates between arcane and divine level progression. Given that, I'd definitely say that I'd disallow additional levels to continue to improve both caster progressions, which kind of makes it a moot point for progressing further as a theurge - just take more sorcerer or cleric levels.

 

[gavagai]

If I recall correctly, the epic progression for mystic theurge (levels 11+ in the class) alternates between arcane and divine level progression. Given that, I'd definitely say that I'd disallow additional levels to continue to improve both caster progressions, which kind of makes it a moot point for progressing further as a theurge - just take more sorcerer or cleric levels.

Magesmiley, do you have a source on that? Thanks

 

[rgard]

...ah, of course, my calculation above was faulty, because a a character at lvl 20 (Clr 3, Sorc 4, MT 13) would be 3 caster levels ahead (though not spells) ahead of a standard character.

So, to quote rgard, does anyone have the epic build for MT?

Now that I think about it, I think there is a pdf for sale at rpg now that maps this into epic levels. I may have even bought it. I'll look for it.

Just to clarify my previous post. I wouldn't allow an 11 level for MT until the character reaches Epic levels.

That would be part of the draw-back to the class in that the pc would need to focus on cleric, wiz, other or prc to fill out the 20 level progression.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[rgard]

If I recall correctly, the epic progression for mystic theurge (levels 11+ in the class) alternates between arcane and divine level progression. Given that, I'd definitely say that I'd disallow additional levels to continue to improve both caster progressions, which kind of makes it a moot point for progressing further as a theurge - just take more sorcerer or cleric levels.

So it makes me think the alternate progression is not the epic progression...unless there are other class features to make it attractive.

I'm fairly certain you could justify mapping a dual progression in Epic by following the guidelines in the DMG and Complete books.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Magesmiley]

So it makes me think the alternate progression is not the epic progression...unless there are other class features to make it attractive.

I'm fairly certain you could justify mapping a dual progression in Epic by following the guidelines in the DMG and Complete books.

Thanks,
Rich

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/EpicPrestigeClasses.rtf

Spells: When an odd-numbered mystic theurge level above 10th is gained she gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), as if she had gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class she belonged to previously, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known by that class. Her caster level in that class also increases by +1. When an even-numbered mystic theurge level above 10th is gained she gains new spells per day (and spells known, if applicable), as if she had gained a level in a divine spellcasting class she belonged to previously, up to the maximum spells per day and spells known by that class. Her caster level in that class also increases by +1.

That's straight from the SRD. You don't really get a lot of benefits from improving as an epic theurge as opposed to improving your cleric and wizard levels. I'd actually argue that you're actually hurting yourself - the theurge gets a bonus epic feat every 6th level whereas the cleric and wizard get one every third level, not to mention your familiar and undead turning abilities improve as you gain levels in cleric/wizard and they don't for theurge levels. Plus of course, more hp for the cleric levels. The more I look at it, the epic theurge really is a rather weak class.

 

[rgard]

http://www.wizards.com/d20/files/v35/EpicPrestigeClasses.rtf



That's straight from the SRD. You don't really get a lot of benefits from improving as an epic theurge as opposed to improving your cleric and wizard levels. I'd actually argue that you're actually hurting yourself - the theurge gets a bonus epic feat every 6th level whereas the cleric and wizard get one every third level, not to mention your familiar and undead turning abilities improve as you gain levels in cleric/wizard and they don't for theurge levels. Plus of course, more hp for the cleric levels. The more I look at it, the epic theurge really is a rather weak class.

Thanks for finding that. You are right, it is weak. Time to house rule that out of existence!

Thanks again,
Rich

 

[gavagai]

Thanks for finding that. You are right, it is weak. Time to house rule that out of existence!

Thanks again,
Rich

True, but its somehow telling me the designers didnt think MT should progress with two caster levels indefinetely...