Arcane / Divine parallel progression for more than 10 levels?

[gavagai]

I have a PC who is currently Sorc 4 / Cler 3 / Mystic Theurge 9.
As he is approaching 10th lvl of the Mystic Theurge, he is lobbying to have a prestige class allowed to continue advancing with both spell casting classes beyond level 17 (its a variant of the Arcane Hierophant). In theory, a Wiz 3 / Cler 3 / MT 10 / xx 4 would have 9th level spells both for divine and arcane spells.

Now the question: back when the character was introduced (we have a long running campaign; it was just after 3.5 appeared with the first MT), I defended the "overly powerful" build against game balance objections from my other players ... this time, I am not so sure. Would you allow it? Does it sound too powerful for you?

 

[Herzog]

No, it doesn't.

Then again, I'm the player of a character going for MT myself, and have been looking at the same MT 'cap'. Not that I'll reach it soon (haven't even got to MT 1 yet, and campaign is on hiatus) but nevertheless.

Playing advocate of the Devil:

look at it this way.
There's (probably) a reason the MT only has 10 levels. Adding a second PrC on top of it with both arcane and divine casting progression is identical to allowing the MT to progress beyond lvl 10. If that doesn't bother you, just increase the MT to 15 levels (or 20). If it does, why would you allow another PrC to do exactly the same? (most probably, with other abilities on top of it, knowing the AH....)

Herzog

 

[Darklone]

Check out the latest "Which prclasses are broken" discussion here. There's the good old Ur-priest/MT combo that does the same.

 

[gavagai]

Check out the latest "Which prclasses are broken" discussion here. There's the good old Ur-priest/MT combo that does the same.

Uh, I am sure there are even more broken builds. But I am in a campaign thats now running for four years, and I am not willing to discuss Ur-priest / MT combos ... I am more looking for experience / suggestions from a campaign with a more standard power level ...

Herzog, thats exactly what I am thinking ... overall, the MT wasnt too powerful so far, but we have seen a definite increase in power from level 8 to 15 ... obviously, before allowing the arcane hierophant to complement the MT, I would allow the 15 level MT ... but I am not even sure whether thats a good idea

 

[satori01]

A druid/Arcane caster could do this by taking levels in Arcane Hierophant & Mystic Theurge and get 9th level spells in both classes.... so you can say there is precedent.

I would say it depends upon your reading of the player. Is the player the type that will manipulate the rules to gain an unfair singular advantage...or for the most part are they a team player.

It would be quite easy to build another PrC...Supreme Mystic Theurge that does the same thing as continuing the double casting progression with some balancing factors thrown in.

My personal read of the situation... you have a campaign that has been ongoing for 4 years, the character and the player has probably endured countless hours of hardship and suffering. After 4 years your campaign is probably considered EPIC, not in the mechanical rules sense, but just from the storyline and longevity.
If you run a lot of campaigns like this, you probably do not get the high levels very often....so when you get a chance to let players go BIG might as well let them.

I also find that players with longstanding characters tend to be more restrained in their use of power....they have precedent and character concept to temper power drunk craziness.

 

[gavagai]

Satori, some good points offered. Of course, Arcane Hierophant is no precedent for us because it was never allowed in our game ... but you're right that some playtester at WOTC found out that its not hurting the game too much. Its true that long running PCs are more sensible in power use, but its also true that the greatest danger in my campaign (I think) is subjective inferiority of one character concept compared to another one - prompting players to consider switching characters, and throwing the campaign flow more in chaos than a resurrection spell once in a while (speaking of this, any ideas how to bump a TWF halfling ranger 2 / rogue 14?? ).

 

[Nifft]

Mystic Theurge is an "externally balanced" PrC. It's balanced on one side by having to suck in order to get into it, and it grows steadily more powerful (away from sucking) as you get towards the end of it. If you continued with that same progression, you'd get to "broken".

Look at it this way: you pay for being a 13th level Cleric by virtue of only being a 17th level Wizard (at 20th level).

Would it be equally balanced to pay for being a 17th level Cleric by virtue of only being a 17th level Wizard (at 20th level)? I'd say not so much.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Herzog]

mm. I'm starting to answer my own questions.

Here's one on balance:

If you add 5 levels to the current MT class, (or, create a new class of 5 levels that mimics the MT structure) the balance for everything up to and including lvl 20 would be ok. (I think)

However, as soon as you hit Epic Levels, (especially with the way the Epic MT is ) your balance might be way off.

It would be similar to allowing all Core Classes to increase 'normal' beyond lvl 20.

Ah. thought of something else.

Consider this:
Clr 3/Wiz 3/MT 10/AH 7

what would be the effect of AH8? Since both your Clr and Wiz spells are already 'as 20th lvl', what would this character get?

Herzog

 

[gavagai]

I am not sure about the epic MT (didnt look into it, havent got my books with me). But in effect, I thought, you essentially give a character at lvl 20 (Clr 3, Sorc 4, MT 13) the same spell casting ability like a character lvl 23 (Clr 6, Sorc 7, MT 10) ... after that, things appear to stay flat from my point of view. At lvl 23, the "brokenness" should have disappeared, as everyone else has arrived at the same level of power, or am I not getting something here?

 

[Darklone]

Hmm... one might build a drd/brd/wiz and go MT plus Fochlucan lyrist... some spelldancer would be good for evasion...