Arcane / Divine parallel progression for more than 10 levels?

[Musrum]

I think what you need is a 5 level PrC that gives:
1. A five level progression for arcane and divine caster level (for SR, duration and spell effects).
2. full progression of divine OR arcane spellcasting
3. two extra levels of full divine OR arcane spellcasting (whichever is not primary) - the last @ 5th level
4. Something else of major benift (this is a capston PrC).

At 20th level, this would net you Wiz 14(20) / Cleric 17(20) with 2 x Practiced Spellcaster feats.
You would still need to wait to epic to cast 8th level Wiz spells, but the spells you can cast will not suck so much...

 

[Maldor]

forget MT + AH
true necromancer and MT for the win and that will give Epic dual spell progression plus undead minons are fun ever kill a dragon by haveing you shadow go inside it then str damage it dead it rocks

i've played many MT and simaler classes because i'm the only one that likes casters and the group needed devine magic i have found them to be weaker then full casters of equal level even when i try to powergame the hack out of them to get on par

 

[green slime]

forget MT + AH
true necromancer and MT for the win and that will give Epic dual spell progression plus undead minons are fun ever kill a dragon by haveing you shadow go inside it then str damage it dead it rocks

i've played many MT and simaler classes because i'm the only one that likes casters and the group needed devine magic i have found them to be weaker then full casters of equal level even when i try to powergame the hack out of them to get on par

t hrts 2 rd ths. Y?

 

[rgard]

True, but its somehow telling me the designers didnt think MT should progress with two caster levels indefinetely...

Except you can do that at a less powerful level (sub epic). I think they goofed on this one. Alternating between Epic Cleric and Epic Wizard is clearly superior to Epic MT.

They are human, they can goof.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

I've run into this question as a GM, though the character in question never actually hit MT 10+. Even so, I cam up with a solution both the player and I were happy with.

It was essentially an almost-epic PrC that took MT up to epic (and would also be used for epic progression, rather than the official epic MT). The class granted a +1 advance to cast level for both arcane and divine spellcasting, but advanced spells per day at a 2/3 rate. Thus after 3 levels of advanced MT you gain +2 levels of spell access for both arcane and divine, and +3 caster level. This made the class better than going back to cleric and wizard, but helped cap the power creep a higher-level dual spellcaster can gain at a 1/1 rate of spell access.

To make up for the "lost" power compared to the base MT, the advanced class got d6 hp and 2/3 BAB. By the time you've taken 10 level of MT, these slight increases in power don't help that much, but they make the player happier.

 

[gavagai]

Musrum, Owen, thanks for your input on classes. Owen, I assume that this class replaced the original MT? Or did you just use it to close the gap between lvl 17 and 20?


What do the guys who play epic say to the value of the abilities to cast spells like a say, 13th to 14th level caster + practiced spellcaster feat to increase caster level? Is it practically worthless because its dispelled anyway / too low in caster level to breach SR? Or would it be a nifty set of additional abilities to complement a focussed spell caster (who is 3 levels below his prime)? I wonder whether "caster 29" versus "caster 26" is really so much more powerful at that level, while a fireshield or a teleport may always come in handy for a cleric, even at meagre CL 17 ...?

 

[Owen K.C. Stephens]

I actually made it a 3 level class, then used the same progression for epic MTs.

 

[gavagai]

OK, I've done some math.

If we allow a Sorc4 / Cler3 / MT x with 2x practiced spellcaster feats to progress as MT continously (or add a second double progression class), that character "hits" a single class caster by level 24:
- spell progression to level 20
- caster level 24
So, compared to a full sorcerer, he effectively trades in the advancement of his familiar for the spellcasting power of a 24th level cleric (and some minor tidbits like better saves, hits BAB, but nothing much). From my wording, I guess you can see that I dont really like it.

If we disallow a Sorc4 / Cler3 / MT x with 2x practiced spellcaster feats to progress as MT after level 10, and she instead decides to progress both classes iteratively, that character maxes out his non-epic spell allotment at level 30:
- spell progression to level 20
- caster level 24
So, compared to a full sorcerer, he effectively has all of the above, but at level 30, and casts spells a whopping 6 caster levels lower (but the same number of spells)

Looking at it from this perspective, I would tend to think that a solution is to introdce an epic feat

"EPIC PRACTICED SPELL CASTER"

which effectively bumps caster level increase to +8 (max at character level).

This would allow a 30th level MT to be nearly at par with a 30th level single caster (but much later than at 24th level), and would give the single caster the boost of 2 more "free" epic feats and 2 caster levels. In addition, the MT may chose to continue progressing in only one class, which allows him to keep his spells in the non-progressing class (maybe with an additional +4 caster level at epic, if he spends a feat), and be on par with single casters in epic levels.

Thoughts?

 

[Herzog]

some more math

Let's look at Wiz 3/Cler 3 /MT x

at MT1, he's 3 levels behind on Wiz and 3 levels behind on Cler
on the other hand, he's one level ahead of a Wiz 4/Cler 4

at MT 10, he's still 3 levels behind on Wiz and 3 levels behind on Cler.
He's also 10 levels ahead of a Wiz13/Cler13

Of course, he's given up all non-spellcasting aspects of the Wiz13/Cler13, like familiar progression, bonus feats and turn undead improvement. He probably can't fully use his armor proficiency because of arcane spell failure.

If you would let this continue, he would end up as Wiz3/Cler3/MT17.
still 3 levels behind on Wiz20, still 3 levels behind on Cler20, but 17 levels ahead of
Wiz20/Cler20.

The question that remains for me is: When do those power curves cross?
When is a Wiz 3/Cler 3/MTx comparible in power to a Cler/Wiz of the same level?

Herzog

 

[Nifft]

The question that remains for me is: When do those power curves cross?
When is a Wiz 3/Cler 3/MTx comparible in power to a Cler/Wiz of the same level?

Only when MT = 0. Otherwise, the MT is stronger than the Clr/Wiz.

The more useful question would be: when is a MT as strong as a straight Cleric or Wizard?

I'd propose it's around level 16 (MT = 10), but perhaps a little bit before.

Cheers, -- N