D&D (2024) Arcane/Divine/Primal Spell Lists: Are the Benefits Real?

[Ruin Explorer]

Figuring out which schools the Bard can choose spells from, and then sorting those schools out of a larger Arcane list is objectively more difficult than digesting a smaller list basically anyway you slice it. I don't know what better demonstration there is than that.

I think that's pretty much unarguable, yes.

Using schools to limit the lists is not smart. The schools are total and utter mess (always have been), spells are not where you expect them, and every reorganisation proposed just moves the problem around a bit.

If they'd given Bards the full Arcane list, they could at least argue for simplicity. As they didn't, they can't. Anyone playing a Bard will essentially have to maintain a spell list which is the "Bard" spell list.

It may not add up to much yet but the overall direction seems to be towards higher barriers to entry everywhere I look.

I mean, I don't see any real evidence for this, but what I also don't see is any evidence of barriers really being meaningfully lower. So far in the 1D&D playtest, in terms of accessibility/barriers to entry, it's been consistently "one step forwards, one step back". Some things are easier to deal with, more straightforward. But equally then other things are more complex or require more player effort.

It feels like there isn't a consistent push towards greater accessibility. And maybe that's intentional? But it's weird.

I think there's a reasonable accessibility, balance and design argument for moving to preparation for all classes (though an equal argument would apply to moving to "known" for all, but that would require more dead sacred cows), but the spell lists, as currently implemented, don't really seem to serve many obvious goals.

 

[Azzy]

This thread is about the pros and cons of this new spell list system, and yet people are turning it into how they would revise the system if they were king for the day, and those "fixes" seem more complicated and far removed from either 5e D&D or the One D&D playtest that I'm not sure what purpose they actually serve in this thread.

The playtest forum is unfortunately littered with this kind of thing. I find all the what amounts to houserule proposals unproductive and out of place in discussing the actual playtest.

 

[Gorck]

One of the benefits of these spell lists is that when I was making a shaman class, I kind of wanted there to be just a primal spell list rather than creating a shaman spell list from scratch, now, assuming these spell lists go ahead, I'll just say they have access to the primal spell list and be done with it, much easier. They can hang out with the druids and talk about the differences in how they approach primal magic, through nature or through the elements.

I, unfortunately, went through the painstaking process of creating a whole spell list when I created my Shaman. But in addition to spells from the Druid list, I also added a lot of spells from the Warlock list. Maybe because of the theme of my Shaman being a nature-based spellcaster, as well as an elemental-based caster, with hints of spooky, creepy, eerie spells tacked on. I should probably mention that my Shaman was originally based on the WoW class at the behest of my daughter.

 

[MoonSong]

In 1e, the one class Wizard ("Magic-User") was any kind of spell casting concept, including "warlock", "sorcerer", "enchanter", "necromancer", and so on.

Correction, pretended to be, but it was anything but.

 

[MoonSong]

As mentioned above... mechanically they do create an extra step or two for all the classes that will only being using parts of the spell group, because they have to figure out group and school now, not just a single list. But the question off of that issue though is this-- just how much of a stumbling block is that really?

Take into account that classes that used to care about new spells once every few sessions now have to care every time there is a long rest. So it is even more annoying and difficult now.

 

[Pauln6]

There was an issue with sorcerers, bards, warlocks, and rangers not knowing enough spells but a better way to resolve that could have been to give them an extra known spell at level 1 or whenever they gained a feat. Even giving them specific spells based off their subclass to add flavour might not have been frowned upon too much. Warlocks having to learn their subclass spells using their existing known spell slots was a bummer for sure.

I often wonder why tome warlocks never got any invocations to increase spells known.

I think the pendulum has swung too far the other way.

 

[Composer99]

I don't think the PHB is meant to be an instructional text as such, so I don't know that the fact that newer players might be troubled by the potential structure of the new spell lists in the PHB proper is a problem, or at least as much of a problem as it's presented as.

As far as parsing out spell lists based on school access goes, I expect that is part of the push for going digital, because having a filterable table of spells turns that task into a cinch rather than a chore.

 

[Undrave]

This makes the lore and meaning behind schools illogical. Which then makes linking classes to schools illogical. And thus new player will be forced to look at the list every time as there will be even less rhyme or reason to spell schools.

They were always illogical to an extant IMO, this is just making the cracks worse.

I have no idea what they were in 4e

They were powers with the 'Healing' keyword, regardless of power source. Spell Schools were only gracelessly kludged back into the Mage in Essentials as the Super Unique Special Awesome keywords for Special Boy Wizards.

The Wizard needs to split away some schools, so it can specialize more, and so other full caster classes can have more design space for their own flavor concepts.

YES!

The Wizard players will NEVER allow it though as that would make them less special and powerful.

 

[Mephista]

The Bard actually seems to work well if you just give them all Divination/Illusion/Tramsmutation/Enchantment spells from all power sources, not just arcane.

The only non-Arcane Illusion is Silence, which is normally a bard spell anyways.

With Divination, there's a host of new spells, like Detect Traps or Detect Poison, Speak with Animals, as well as the Commune (/with nature) spells and Guidance/Divination/Augury. The Detect spells are extremely niche and kinda bad. Arcane already has its own version of Commune, Contact Other Plane, which is arguably better if more dangerous. The druidic themed ones are things bard should have by default. Guidance, Augury and divination are the only new, really stand out ones, which are either overlaping with Bardic Influence already (I'm looking at you, Guidance) or heavily reliant upon DMs, which is questionable.

Enchantment would offer six new spells, all 1st circle - Bane, Bless, Heroism, Command, Compell Duel and Charm Animal. All thematically appropriate for Bards to have. Well, maybe not Duel, but its not like it will ever be a game breaking choice for a sword bard to take.

Transmutation might be an issue - a wide variety of food based production, shillelagh, bark skin, a few ranger-bow spells.... but I'm not seeing anything that would break anything anymore than the Arcane Transmutation list already does.

 

[tetrasodium]

The Bard actually seems to work well if you just give them all Divination/Illusion/Tramsmutation/Enchantment spells from all power sources, not just arcane.

The only non-Arcane Illusion is Silence, which is normally a bard spell anyways.

With Divination, there's a host of new spells, like Detect Traps or Detect Poison, Speak with Animals, as well as the Commune (/with nature) spells and Guidance/Divination/Augury. The Detect spells are extremely niche and kinda bad. Arcane already has its own version of Commune, Contact Other Plane, which is arguably better if more dangerous. The druidic themed ones are things bard should have by default. Guidance, Augury and divination are the only new, really stand out ones, which are either overlaping with Bardic Influence already (I'm looking at you, Guidance) or heavily reliant upon DMs, which is questionable.

Enchantment would offer six new spells, all 1st circle - Bane, Bless, Heroism, Command, Compell Duel and Charm Animal. All thematically appropriate for Bards to have. Well, maybe not Duel, but its not like it will ever be a game breaking choice for a sword bard to take.

Transmutation might be an issue - a wide variety of food based production, shillelagh, bark skin, a few ranger-bow spells.... but I'm not seeing anything that would break anything anymore than the Arcane Transmutation list already does.

Spoiler: 34 Total Divination Spells

true strike
detect magic
identify
detect thoughts
locate object
see invis
clairvoyance
Sending
Tongues
Arcane Eye
locate creature
contact other plane
Legend Lore
Rary's telepathic bond
Scrying
True seeing
Telepathy
Foresight
guidance
Dretect evil & good
Detect Magic
Detect poison & disease
Augury
Find Traps
divination
commune
Legend Lore
Find the path
True seeing
Hunter's Mark
Speak with animals
Beast sense
Locate animals or plants
Commune with nature

Spoiler: 28 Total Illusion Spells

Dancing Lights
Minor illusion
Color spray
Disguise Self
Illusory Script
Silent Image
Blur
Invisibility
Magic Mouth
Mirror Image
Phantasmal Force
Fear
Hypnotic Pattern
Major Image
Phantom Steed
Greater Invis
Hallucinatory Terrain
Phantasmal Killer
Creation
Dream
Mislead
Seeming
Programmed Illusion
Mirage Arcane
Project Image
Simulacrum
Weird
Silence

Spoiler: 34 Total Enchantment Spells

Vicious Mockery
Charm Person
Dissonant whispers
Hex
Sleep
Tasha's hideous Layughter
Calm Emotions
Crown of Madness
Enthrall
Hold Person
Suggestion
Compulsion
Confusion
Dominate Person
Geas
Hold Monster
Modify Memory
Mass Suggestion
ottos irresistable Dance
Antipathy/Sympathy
Dominate Monster
Feeblemind
Glibness
Power Word Stun
Power Word Kill
Bane
Bless
Command
Compelled Duel
Heroism
Zone of Truth
Animal Friendship
Animal Messenger
Dominate Beast

Spoiler: 68 Total Transmutation Spells

Mending
Perstidigitation
Expeditious Rertreat
Feather Fall
Jump
Longstrider
Thunderwave
Alter Self
Blindness/Deafness
Darkvision
Enlarge/reduce
Knock
Levitate
Magic Weapon
Rope Trick
Shatter
Spider Climb
Blink
Fly
Haste
Slow
Water Breathing
Control Water
Fabricate
Polymorph
Stoneshape
Stoneskin
Animate Objects
Passwall
Telekinesis
Disintegrate
Flesh To Stone
Move Earth
Etheralness
Reverse Gravity
Sequester
Control Weather
Shapechange
Tiomestop
true Polymorph
Thaumaturgy
Purify Food & Drink
Etheralness
Regenerate
Druidcraft
Message
Shillelagh
Thorn Whip
Create or Destroy Water
Goodberry
Barkskin
Cordon of Arrows
Darkvision
Enhance Ability
Heat Metal
Spike Growth
Elemental Weapon
Lightning Arrow
Meld into stone
Plant Growth
Speak With Plants
Water Breathing
Water Walk
Control Water
Giant Insect
Awaken
Move Earth
Wind Walk
Animal Shapes
Control Weather

I should certainly hope that the resulting one hundred sixty four spell spell selection "seems to work" when the 2014 phb bard spell list consists of 121 spells if I counted right. By comparison the entire arcane spell list has 230 spells with 105 in Divine & 123 in Primal. Given the list that "seems to work" is significantly larger than the Divine & Primal lists respectively in addition to being quite a bit larger than the 2014 bard list wouldn't it be odd if a list just over 70% the size of the entire arcane list did not "seem to work"?