Arcane Fist

[rivers77]

I just have a quick question for anyone that is an expert on this ability from the Enlightened Fist PrC in CoArc.

The way I read it, this ability can be used only one time a day. Is that correct?

If you combine this with Rapid Stunning from CoW, could it be used twice?

Reading it I thought it could be used twice with Rapid Stunning, but only one time a day. I have a player that wants to play this type of character, but I want to have my ducks lined up before I give him an answer.

Thanks in advance,

Mike

 

[radmod]

The way I read it, this ability can be used only one time a day. Is that correct?

No. From the SRD for Stunning Fist:

You may attempt a stunning attack once per day for every four levels you have attained (but see Special), and no more than once per round.

A monk who selects this feat may attempt a stunning attack a number of times per day equal to her monk level, plus one more time per day for every four levels she has in classes other than monk.

So a 5th level monk may use Stunning Fist five times a day. A Monk 5/ Scout 4 could use it 5 + 1 times a day. Further, from CArc:

An Enlightened Fist adds her class level to her monk level to determine her ...number of daily attempts of her Stunning Fist feat.

Thus a EF with 7 monk levels and 3 EF levels could use Stunning Fist 10 times a day. With Arcane Fist you spend one of your daily stunning attempts to use Arcane Fist. So one could do it ten times a day.

If you combine this with Rapid Stunning from CoW, could it be used twice?

No. Rapid Stunning allows you to "use one additional stunning attack per round."
However, Arcane Fist specifically says:

She can choose to deliver the touch spell with any single unarmed strike she makes during the action.

So while one could make an additional stunning attempt with Rapid Stunning, one can still only make a single Arcane Fist attack once per round.

At least that's how I've been reading it. I'm sure someone will come along and correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[rivers77]

I appreciate the quick reply on this one. I don't know that I necessarily agree completely yet, so let's chat about this a little bit. Here is what the acrance fist says directly from the book:

Beginning at 3rd level, an enlightened fist can spend one of her daily stunning attempts to cast and deliver a touch spell as part of an unarmed full attack action. She can choose to deliver the touch spell with any single unarmed strike attack she makes during the action.

It doesn't say once per round like fist of energy. It specifically says the enlightened fist can us one stunning attempt to deliver a touch spell.

Here is what rapid stunning says

You may use on additional stunning attack (or other special attack that counts against your daily limit of stunning attacks) per round.

Wouldn't arcane fist be considered a special attack that counts against your daily limit of stunning attacks?

This is the way I read it at least for now, but I'm still up for debate.

 

[Dandu]

It's not going to be one time a day. Did you mean once per round in your original post?

 

[radmod]

Beginning at 3rd level, an enlightened fist can spend one of her daily stunning attempts to cast and deliver a touch spell as part of an unarmed full attack action. She can choose to deliver the touch spell with any single unarmed strike attack she makes during the action.

It doesn't say once per round like fist of energy. It specifically says the enlightened fist can us one stunning attempt to deliver a touch spell.

Actually it does. It says as part of an "unarmed full attack action." Since (unless you have something that allows two or more full attack actions in a round) you can only make one a round, you may only do one Arcane Fist a round. Rapid Fist doesn't allow you to make two full attacks a round, only one additional use of stunning a round as opposed to the normal one a round.

You may use on additional stunning attack (or other special attack that counts against your daily limit of stunning attacks) per round.

Wouldn't arcane fist be considered a special attack that counts against your daily limit of stunning attacks?

Yes. I hope you didn't think I was saying that if you have 10 stun attempts a day you can use AF 10 times a day in addition to your stun attempts. That's not what I meant.
Presume you have 10 stun attempts in a given day, you could then:
use 3 of them to stun in separate rounds
use another to do Arcane Fist in another round
in one round, stun twice with Rapid Fist
in another round, use Arcane fist and then do another stun via Rapid Fist
and then still have two more stun attempts left.

I presume, though, that what you're still not sure about is the "more than once per day" part?
If an ability/feat is allowed only once per day it (usually) says so. For Arcane Fist it simply says she "can spend one of her daily stunning attempts" ... "as part of an unarmed full attack action." Since you can make more than one unarmed full attack action a day, you can do Arcane Fist as many times as you have stunning attempts per day (and can take full attack actions).
It would be like clerics turning. One way to rewrite (slightly) turning would be: "she can spend one of her daily turn checks as a standard action." Thus a normal cleric would still get multiple turn checks per day but only one per round.

 

[rivers77]

Okay, going with the theory that you can use arcane fist as often as you have your stunning attempts in day... then you should be able to use it twice in a round with rapid stunning, right?

After all, it lets you use an additional stunning attempt (or special attack) in a given round.

 

[radmod]

Okay, going with the theory that you can use arcane fist as often as you have your stunning attempts in day... then you should be able to use it twice in a round with rapid stunning, right?

After all, it lets you use an additional stunning attempt (or special attack) in a given round.

I see what you are getting at because I left some things out, but no. The entire entry for Arcane Fist:

Beginning at 3rd level, an enlightened fist can spend one of her daily stunning attempts to cast and deliver a touch spell as part of a full unarmed attack action. She can choose to deliver the touch spell with any single unarmed strike she makes during the action.

Thus, even if you have Rapid Fist to give you two stun attempts, you can still only "spend one ...attempt(s) to deliver a ... as part of a full unarmed attack action." So you can choose to use Arcane Fist with any one of your unarmed attacks that is a stun attempt.

Presume you have Rapid Fist and are unarmed attacking three times in a round. You can do two stun attempts (out of three) in that round. Yet, of the two stun attempts, only one can be the touch spell for Arcane Fist.