Arcane Magic/Divine Magic: Should there be a difference?

Should there be a division between arcane and divine magic

  • Yes. The current system works well and is balanced

    Votes: 30 29.1%
  • There should be some room for a blurring of the boundaries -- it's already started

    Votes: 17 16.5%
  • There should be no division as there is little of it outside of RPGs.

    Votes: 12 11.7%
  • I prefer a system like Arcana Unearthed -- different levels of access to spells by character clas an

    Votes: 29 28.2%
  • Other (Please specify).

    Votes: 15 14.6%

William Ronald

Explorer
As I hae mentioned in a few threads, I am working on a homebrew campaign -- in addition to gaming with Mark and a few others at Games Plus. One question that comes to mind is the division between arcane and divine magic.

In some novels, there is not a division between arcane and divine magic. Some "wizards" can heal, and some "priests" can summon rather horrific creatures. On the other hand, there is an issue of game balance -- which is important to me as the last gaming group I was in had balance problems at the end.

One option that I am looking at is to use the D&D 3.5 rules as currently written. This has the benefit of being familiar to everyone -- although some on the boards have said that they find it difficult to find literary, mythic or legendary characters that closely match standard D&D spell casters.

Another option is to have limited access by arcane or divine spellcasters to some of the spells of the other lists. Wizards might have some limited access to healing, while clerics might have some access to spells that fit their role as representatives of their deities. (The domain concept in 3.0 and 3.5 D&D seems to take a step in this direction.) An advantage of this is that it allows somewhat more flexibility -- especially if an adventuring group only has one spellcasting character.

Perhaps another option is best represented by Monte Cook's Arcana Unearthed. For those not familiar with this book, he uses a single spell list with different levels of access by various character classes based on class and feats.

As for the type of world I am working on, it would have many parallels to different historical cultures in several areas. To me, the point of any rules system is to create a game that is fun, remorable, and has a distinctive feel to it. (I do not particularly want to use a commercially published setting as I tend to like homebrew campaigns.) I also STRONGLY believe in having games where every player feels that their characters can make a difference, so balance is an issue.

So, what do you think?
 

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I think I should learn to read the post before voting.....


I don't mind having the *spells* overlap between divine and arcane, but I don't like the sources of power to overlap. If Napalmus, god of fire, decides to grant his priests the ability to cast 'Fireball', more power to him, but I don't want every cleric out there memorizing and casting like a wizard.

From a standard D&D perspective, you've got to take care not to obsolete a class by eliminating those things that make it special. If you let clerics have unrestricted access to the wizard spells lists, I don't think you'd see many wizards anymore outside of the serious RP'ers. Familiars and the odd bonus feat wouldn't make up for the better HPs, BAB, armor, no ASF, etc.
 
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Rodrigo Istalindir said:
I think I should learn to read the post before voting.....


I don't mind having the *spells* overlap between divine and arcane, but I don't like the sources of power to overlap. If Napalmus, god of fire, decides to grant his priests the ability to cast 'Fireball', more power to him, but I don't want every cleric out there memorizing and casting like a wizard.

From a standard D&D perspective, you've got to take care not to obsolete a class by eliminating those things that make it special. If you let clerics have unrestricted access to the wizard spells lists, I don't think you'd see many wizards anymore outside of the serious RP'ers. Familiars and the odd bonus feat wouldn't make up for the better HPs, BAB, armor, no ASF, etc.

This is one of my concerns, as I do not want to make any class superfluous. Not only is it unbalancing, but who would want to be a wizard if you had access to all the same powers as a cleric. I can see a cleric of Loki or Agni (Norse and Indian fire gods,by the way) having access to fire related spells. One of my concerns is how to handle healing by wizard type characters. (For example, there are some spells in Arcana Unearthed that heal but cause the caster to take some subdual damage.)

Thanks for posting!!
 

I went with "other".

My poll answer would be "depends on what you are trying to accomplish."

I do beleive that the current system is well balanced, and has good niche protection and gives the classes distinct identity.

But if you are going for a different, specific feel for magic or magic-using characters in your game, you may specifically want something different. For example, when I first started fiddling around with shaman type characters, I went into fits over where it fit. You could make good arguments for either.

Similarly, if you have a specific theory about how magic works, neither arcane nor divine may fit.

On another note, look at all the different witch books out there and see how all over the map different takes on witches are WRT divine and arcane.

The system is fine and stands on its own well, but if you try to put other concepts to the table, you have to adapt it to the dichotomy and where it goes may be a judgement call.
 

I had to vote for other... specifically "Yes, there should be a division, but the current system is becoming a jumbled load of incoherent garbage that makes tying coherent magic into worldbuilding difficult."

Consider:
Cleric, Paladin, Blackguard, Ranger, Druid: Divine Wis Prepared. Good enough.
Wizard: Arcane Int Prepared.

Now things get really odd...
Sorceror: Arcane Cha Spontaneous. (Exactly like a wizard, but not!)
Bard: Arcane Cha Spontaneous. (Arcane -- but with healing?)
Assassin: Arcane Int Spontaneous. (note that these 3 arcane are all core)
Shugenja: Divine Cha Spontaneous.
Mystic: Divine Wis Spontaneous. (Excactly like a cleric, but not!)
Spirit Shaman: Divine Wis+Cha Semi-Spontaneous (Exactly unlike a druid)
Psion of any discipline: Psionic Int Spontaneous
PsyWarrior: Psionic Wis Spontaneous
Wilder: Psionic Cha Spontaneous

(And while we're at it, can anybody name the classes that can leverage their great spellcasting ability to "Use * Device" as a class skill?)

::Kaze (is working on reducing casting to "Divine: Powered by Spirits", "Divine: Powered by Outsiders", and "Psionic: Powered by Self" and adjusting class casting style and spell lists accordingly for his world -- Elocator Assassin should be a cool multi-prestige-class.)
 

While I voted the Arcana Unearthed option (it is my favourite of those listed), the point does indeed come down to "what are you trying to map here?"

D&D (D20 or otherwise) doesn't really follow any particular fantasy tradition; instead, it is a blending of many different ones, some modern (Vance), and some not so. While some legends differentiate between Divine and, say, Infernal magics, I have run across very few (at least in the pre-D&D world) where there is a noted difference between Arcane and Divine in the D&D sense. Most of the fantasy stories and/or legends that I like actually use something much closer to ceremonial magic, something that D&D in any of its incarnations has modelled poorly. But ceremonial magic, while impressive and insteresting, doesn't work well in games where everything is done in a 6 second timeframe. If magic doesn't work more or less at the drop of a hat, the magic-based characters, whether arcane or divine, would have no real place or purpose in the game, at least as PCs.

So for gaming purposes I like what Monte did with AU; for other purposes I prefer ceremonial magic.

Then there is always Ars Magica, but that is an entirely different kind of game with a very different purpose to both learning and using magic.
 

I went with other; determine the result you are after and use the system (or create a new system) that achieves that end.

As such, between Midnight's magic system, Arcana Unearth's magic system, and UA's incantation system, I doubt any future campaigns I run will use the standard Divine/Arcane division (or, for that matter, Vancian) again. I'd switch it now (to incantations), but if I told my players that I was revamping the rules again, they'll likely tie me to a tree surrounded by fire ant mounds and lob oranges at me for a month.
 

Personally I think the current system is balanced and gives enough differentiation that Wizards are a viable class and Clerics can use domains to get cool spells.

I also don't see the reason for Wizards being able to cast healing spells. Much better that a First Aid feat chain is introduced as per D20 Modern allowing the Heal Skill to be used for more than just stabilising (like say turning real damage into subdual).

That being said IMC I've dropped Wizards entirely (but kept Scorcerers) and unified the spell lists:P - but only because I have no heavy armour and no Wizards
 

There isn't a right or wrong answer to this question. It's all about what you want out of the game, the setting you are playing in, and what flavor suits you most.

My personal preference is to keep Arcane and Divine totally separate. In the 3.0 and 3.5 editions you see the boundaries between the two becoming more and more blurred (especially in the domains). There are way too many spells that are shared between the two traditions for my taste. I would prefer if there was no sharing of spells whatsoever between arcane and divine. The two traditions use magic very differently from each other and I just don't like seeing a Wizard and Priest casting the same spell. By having so much overlap I feel that the magic is deluded. I'm not traying to say that Priests shouldn't have a spell that detects magic or blasts enemeis with lightning, but they should be different spells with their own unique rules and feel rather than just an exact copy of a Wizard spell.

I also like the idea of "ceremonial" or ritual magic, and would like to see more spells like this. The quick-castable combat spells are great and all, but alot of things are missing when you leave out the ritual effects. Alot of the best roleplaying type spells work this way, and I'd like to see more of them in the game.
 

I'm all for either way, but I voted in favor of something like Arcana Unearthed. I use/have used a variety of magic systems and I like AU as a good blend of the traditional and the new.
 

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