Arcane Thesis - Too Powerful or Balanced?

[Olaf the Stout]

Arcane Thesis lets you pick 1 spell and cast it at +2 spell level. Additionally, all Metamagic you use in the spell are reduced by 1 level (check the PHBII errata).

So that means that you could cast an Enlarged (+1 spell level), Extended(+1), Silent(+1), Still(+1), Scupted (+1) Arcane Thesis'd spell without increasing the level of the spell.

Does anyone think that is too powerful? Or is it still balanced since you have to spend a feat on Arcane Thesis, plus a feat for each Metamagic feat you wish to use.

I ask because one of my players is looking at getting Arcane Thesis and wanted me to see if I would allow the feat in my campaign.

Olaf the Stout

 

[Kylas]

Arcane Thesis lets you pick 1 spell and cast it at +2 spell level. Additionally, all Metamagic you use in the spell are reduced by 1 level (check the PHBII errata).

So that means that you could cast an Enlarged (+1 spell level), Extended(+1), Silent(+1), Still(+1), Scupted (+1) Arcane Thesis'd spell without increasing the level of the spell.

Does anyone think that is too powerful? Or is it still balanced since you have to spend a feat on Arcane Thesis, plus a feat for each Metamagic feat you wish to use.

I ask because one of my players is looking at getting Arcane Thesis and wanted me to see if I would allow the feat in my campaign.

Olaf the Stout

For the most part I think is okay for the reasons stated above, but if you are unsure about your game being broken ask the player what spell he plans on using it on. Then when a BBEG rolls around you'll be well prepared. I'm not saying have all your Npc's run around with cloak of antispell X, but try and strike a balance between player having fun with his investment and the group having fun, (especially the DM.) I think it makes for a great rematch battle when the main strategy used to thwart BBEG so easily the first time doesn't work so effectively now.

 

[akbearfoot]

That makes it WAY too powerful for a single feat.


It was a strong feat the way I understood it before, which was +2 caster levels and -1 from the total spell level. The errata version is way over the top.

The 4th level Magic missile doing average of around 50 force damage is a good example. Way to much damage for such a low level spell as a 7th level character. Make it worse with a Scorching Ray...9th level caster doing around 135 fire damage with a 5th level spell slot. Thats more damage than a Meteor Swarm on average!

4th level empowered maximized Ray of Enfeeblment from 20-27 points of strength penalty...hrmm

 

[StreamOfTheSky]

1. A level 4 Empowered Scorching Ray, with no other feats or investment at all, does an average of 42 damage. Once you hit CL 11, it surpasses your magic missile example in damage.

2. Even if it did 50 str penalty, ray of enfeeblement couldn't reduce a creature's str below one, so it never becomes an instant win button, even after boosting it to spell levels where you could just learn instant win buttons.


I think arcane thesis is like any costly build. It mostly sucks and isn't worth it on its own, but can get out of hand if enough resources are devoted to the one trick. I really don't think it's a big deal, though. You have to spend a lot of feats to start seeing a huge benefit, and casting the same spell over and over would be mind-numbingly boring to me. If you're not casting that spell at least 1/4 of the time and you've spent all your feats towards it...I'd call that a bad investment, YMMV.

Even for the Killer Gnome" Shadowcraft Mage build, which can cast any Sorcerer/Wizard evocation or conuration (creation and summoning only) using just a single spell (ie, enough versatility ot not get boring)...that build literally REQUIRES 4 feats right off the bat to work right. So, it's already quite feat starved. Arcane Thesis is kinda lowsy even for that build if all you're getting is +2 CL. You need to pick up metamagic feats, too. (And the only one you have as part of the required 4, Heighten Spell, does not benefit from AT)

In any case, like others said...it's one spell. Once he gets well known or faces the same foe a second time, said foes can be expected to have measures to foil the one spell at least sometimes.

 

[green slime]

I have no problem with it. Except I have the following conditions:

I only allow the caster to reduce the cost of the metamagical additions once per metamagical feat (as I also allow multiple additions of the same metamagical feat to a single spell).

You can't ever cast a spell of a higher level (prior to reductions) than you could cast ordinarily. So as an example, no 7th level Wizard, can stack on metamagical feats to cast a spell of effective level higher than 4th, regardless of various reductions. Such a character cannot yet handle the energies required.

So while a 7th level wizard can cast an Arcane thesised empowered acid arrow, as a third level spell, he can't squeeze in another metamagic feat, nor could he cast a Arcane thesised maximized acid arrow, as both of these scenarios would push the effective spell level beyond four.

 

[Runestar]

Arcane thesis was clarified (see the PHB2 errata on the wotc website) to subtract 1 only from the final spell lv. Whether it will allow you to reduce the final lv adjustment to zero (or even negative) is still debatable though, though most disallow the latter (and are split with regards to the former).

 

[irdeggman]

Arcane thesis was clarified (see the PHB2 errata on the wotc website) to subtract 1 only from the final spell lv. Whether it will allow you to reduce the final lv adjustment to zero (or even negative) is still debatable though, though most disallow the latter (and are split with regards to the former).

Nope that is not what it says - check the example given. OP is correct. But since it applies to a single spell per feat and you must still have all of the metamagic feats you are applying and be at least 6th level skill rank of 9 prerequisitie - no it is not all that powerful, compared to some of the other feats in PHB 2.

Page 74– Arcane Thesis [Substitution]
Should read, “When you apply any metamagic feats other than Heighten Spell” Thus if you were to prepare an empowered maximized magic missile
(assuming magic missile is the spell you choose for your Arcane Thesis), it would be prepared as a 4th level spell (+1 level for empowered, down from +2; and +2 levels for maximized, down from +3).

Page 74 – Arcane Thesis [Omission]
Add the following text to the end of the “Benefit” section: “A spell cannot be reduced to below its original level with the use of this feat.”

 

[MichaelK]

Or is it still balanced since you have to spend a feat on Arcane Thesis, plus a feat for each Metamagic feat you wish to use.

I'd say yes, it's still balanced for precisely that reason.

What's more I love the flavor of that feat.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

1. A level 4 Empowered Scorching Ray, with no other feats or investment at all, does an average of 42 damage. Once you hit CL 11, it surpasses your magic missile example in damage.

2. Even if it did 50 str penalty, ray of enfeeblement couldn't reduce a creature's str below one, so it never becomes an instant win button, even after boosting it to spell levels where you could just learn instant win buttons.


I think arcane thesis is like any costly build. It mostly sucks and isn't worth it on its own, but can get out of hand if enough resources are devoted to the one trick. I really don't think it's a big deal, though. You have to spend a lot of feats to start seeing a huge benefit, and casting the same spell over and over would be mind-numbingly boring to me. If you're not casting that spell at least 1/4 of the time and you've spent all your feats towards it...I'd call that a bad investment, YMMV.

Even for the Killer Gnome" Shadowcraft Mage build, which can cast any Sorcerer/Wizard evocation or conuration (creation and summoning only) using just a single spell (ie, enough versatility ot not get boring)...that build literally REQUIRES 4 feats right off the bat to work right. So, it's already quite feat starved. Arcane Thesis is kinda lowsy even for that build if all you're getting is +2 CL. You need to pick up metamagic feats, too. (And the only one you have as part of the required 4, Heighten Spell, does not benefit from AT)

In any case, like others said...it's one spell. Once he gets well known or faces the same foe a second time, said foes can be expected to have measures to foil the one spell at least sometimes.

Note, a Strength of 1 against a monster that usually has a Strength of 20 or up is basically a "I WIN" button. That would reduce its primary attacks by around 10 points.

Simplest solution is to apply the benefit only to one of the metamagic effects on the spell.

And only allow it for Fireball. Rename the feat "Overpowered Fireball". That's what we did.

Spoiler

Well, at least in jest.

 

[akbearfoot]

I used magic missile as the example because it is pretty much the conventional wizards basic attack spell at low levels. The Arcane Thesis version is 50ish damage that requires no attack roll, can be split among targets, has no saving throw, and essentially is unresistable. Unless you have Shield, or the necklace thingy...or happen to be a force dragon.

Why compare scorching ray to magic missile when I already showcased it doing more damage than a 9th level spell, as a 9th level caster even.

Know any humanoids or small to large creatures that use manufactured weapons or armor that can stay standing with a 1 Strength? Or bruteish monsters who are still a challenge when they suck -13 to hit and damage with no save? See Split Ray eventually for even more cheeze-wiz.


Wizards get free metamagic feats, and tons of the desireable caster PrCs require metamagic feats anyways. That's not a very high associated cost along with the cost of this feat itself. Nobody would bother taking the feat unless they liked using the spell a lot. So try and look at it in the best ways it will be used, not the worst most unlikely ways.

Might make the mage a 1 trick pony, but nobody will survive long enough to tell their buddies anyways.