Arcane Thesis - Too Powerful or Balanced?

[karlstar]

Don't let the 50 points of magic missile damage scare you. An empowered, Sudden maximized Lesser Orb of Acid, will be a 3rd level spell and do 45 points of basically non-resistable damage, except for that pretty trivial ranged touch attack. Not that much different.

 

[green slime]

I used magic missile as the example because it is pretty much the conventional wizards basic attack spell at low levels. The Arcane Thesis version is 50ish damage that requires no attack roll, can be split among targets, has no saving throw, and essentially is unresistable. Unless you have Shield, or the necklace thingy...or happen to be a force dragon.

Strikes me, that with magic missile being so popular, it is a waste to spend so many feats to enhance it. The popularity of magic missile ensures the commanality of shield, brooches of shielding, and the like. Metamagic feats increases the damage per missile, but not the number of missiles. IMX, at least half the players equip their characters with brooches of shielding.

 

[Jhaelen]

Strikes me, that with magic missile being so popular, it is a waste to spend so many feats to enhance it. The popularity of magic missile ensures the commanality of shield, brooches of shielding, and the like. Metamagic feats increases the damage per missile, but not the number of missiles. IMX, at least half the players equip their characters with brooches of shielding.

... unless arcane classes have become completely unpopular because of the introduction of psionic classes.

In my campaign it's twin rayed / transdimensional / empowered / maximized / etc. crystal shards that get lobbed around.

 

[irdeggman]

The 4th level Magic missile doing average of around 50 force damage is a good example. Way to much damage for such a low level spell as a 7th level character. Make it worse with a Scorching Ray...9th level caster doing around 135 fire damage with a 5th level spell slot. Thats more damage than a Meteor Swarm on average!

How can you get magic missile to do 50 pts of damage?

You get a maximum of 5 missiles with a normal maximum damage of 25 pts (5 x 5) then multiply it by 1 1/2 and you still only get 37 (always round down) - so maximized and empowered only gets you 1 1/2 times 25 pts.

 

[akbearfoot]

I didn't do the exact math which was why I said 'around'...So 25 base + avg of 17 more for 42. I think in my head I originally multiplied the roll by 1.5 like you normally would for just being empowered. Cuz that would be right at 50 pts. I still think that's too much automatic damage. IMX brooches of shielding get sold as soon as they get found. The low hp casters have shield, and everyone else begs to be hit with direct damage rather than the jillion other nasty things casters can do. That or they are way more worried about wearing their amulets of health or natural armor (or both).

Granted direct damage spells are usually not the best choice in combat...but that doesn't mean making low level spells do more damage than 9th level spells is balanced.

I personally consider the orb spells borderline broken, and they are essentially banned in all games I have been playing in. Along with Wraithstrike, the Dex damage touch attack that 1-shots great wyrms with no save, and a few other things.

 

[green slime]

I didn't do the exact math which was why I said 'around'...So 25 base + avg of 17 more for 42. I think in my head I originally multiplied the roll by 1.5 like you normally would for just being empowered. Cuz that would be right at 50 pts. I still think that's too much automatic damage. IMX brooches of shielding get sold as soon as they get found. The low hp casters have shield, and everyone else begs to be hit with direct damage rather than the jillion other nasty things casters can do. That or they are way more worried about wearing their amulets of health or natural armor (or both).

Granted direct damage spells are usually not the best choice in combat...but that doesn't mean making low level spells do more damage than 9th level spells is balanced.

I personally consider the orb spells borderline broken, and they are essentially banned in all games I have been playing in. Along with Wraithstrike, the Dex damage touch attack that 1-shots great wyrms with no save, and a few other things.

Akbear, when someone has gone to the bother to actually do the math for an empowered maximised magic missile, how do you then still figure to go on missmanaging figures? Trying to undermine your own argument even further?

Other than that, I don't see much in reference to the OP's query about arcane thesis. Or am I misunderstanding something?

 

[Mon]

I didn't do the exact math which was why I said 'around'...So 25 base + avg of 17 more for 42.

Eh? The damage from a maximized and empowered magic missile cannot reach 42, much less average that much.

25 (maximized) + 6.25 (average addition from being empowered*) = 31.25 average

* 5d4 averages out to 12.5, /2 = 6.25 extra for empower, since empowering a maximised spell still requires you to roll damage for the empower portion. Also the +1s aren't empowered because they are not variable. The minimum is 27.5 (if all 1s are rolled for empowering), the maximum is 35 (if all 4s are rolled for empowering). Even if you allowed the +1s to be empowered, the average would be 33.75 maximum would be 37.5.

...but that doesn't mean making low level spells do more damage than 9th level spells is balanced.

True, but that doesn't occur in this case. With arcane thesis, the above uses a 4th level spell slot. It isn't doing close to what a 9th level spell can dish out.

 

[Runestar]

25 (maximized) + 6.25 (average addition from being empowered*) = 31.25 average

Note that you roll for the final total damage before multiplying it by 1.5 (the empower spell feat entry even uses magic missile as an example), it would be 25 + (5d4+5)*0.5, or 33.75 ~ 34 damage on average.

I would say it seems fairly anemic for what you should be getting out of a 4th lv slot, considering that you could be casting evard's tentacles, enervation, or stoneskin. Heck, even an empowered fireball (modified by arcane thesis) does much more damage, and to everyone in a radius.

I think that as a DM, you may need to metagame a little to keep this feat in check. If the player in question favours the use of said spell (say he is a sorc who applies the feat to his favourite damage spell, which he then proceeds to spam repeatedly), you may want to start giving some of your foes limited resistance to his tactic. How far you need to go would depend on how powerful the end result is (such as better reflex saves, fire resistance or simply spreading them out more).

Just don't go overboard and completely neuter that spell, but do what you need to prevent it from becoming overpowered, if that is the case.

 

[Mon]

*Checks PHB* I stand corrected on the +1s not being empowered.

Obligatory weak excuse: We've always just used the d20srd.org description of empower spell, which doesn't include the magic missile example. A literal reading of the RAW (without the example) would suggest that you don't multiply the +1s since they aren't variable. *shrug* Learn something new every day.

Obligatory and equally weak attempt to claw back some authority: Point still valid though. Nobody's reaching 42 damage with that combo

 

[akbearfoot]

I stand corrected. I no longer think it is overpowered for basic magic missile. I thought it did considerably more damage.

Math Hard! apparently.


I do still think it is too strong for a single feat though. Probably not 'way overpowered' like I originally thought though. I think a feat that just gave you +2 Caster levels for a single spell would be a decent feat worth taking in some cases.

Seems like a no-brainer must have for any blaster or sorcerer as it appears in the errata. Pick 1 offensive spell, metamagic the snot out of it for about 8 levels, then retrain it to a bigger spell.