Archmage/Heirophant Touch->30' range ability + Chain spell metamagic?

[Dthamilaye]

Hello.

What do you think, does the archmage / hierophant ability that changes touch spells to 30' range, work with Chain spell metamagic (Tome&Blood)?

If it does, then it would open such spells for chaining as Energy Immunity (T&B), Greater Invisibility, Fly, Displacement, Resist Energy and a plethora of other buffing spells.

Do you think it is too powerful to buff all group + quite many others (1 target + secondary targets up to caster level, if within 30' from the initial target) with one chained spell, or should it be within a power of a caster with such ability and metamagic feat?

Chain spell is not really too effective with single target damage spells (1/2 damage to secondary targets). It gets better with single target non-damage spells (DC for secondary targets only 4 lower, but otherwise same spell). But it really shines with single target spells with no save. This includes targetted Greater Dispel as offensive, which IMHO is quite strong if the enemies happen to be within 60' from each other. (House rule: the casters CL for the secondary targets is lowered by 4)

On the other hand, chain does not work on touch spells, but the question is, does the special ability of archmage/hierophant change the spells so that chain would work with them? That way, buffing would be so fun (for the players) as they could essentially buff everyone and their brother with one spell. (The power of the buff spells would not lower with Chain meta.)

Any opinions or rule definitions? One of my players is a sorcerer with some archmage levels and he just picked Chain spell as metamagic. So the question rose up.

Thank You.

 

[Hypersmurf]

On the other hand, chain does not work on touch spells, but the question is, does the special ability of archmage/hierophant change the spells so that chain would work with them?

It's not actually a metamagic ability. The spell isn't changing, as it would with a metamagic feat; the range of the spell is still "touch".

It's just that he can deliver that touch from 30 feet away.

In a way, it's similar to using a Spectral Hand - you can deliver a touch spell from a greater distance, but it's still a touch spell.

So I'd be inclined to say that any metamagic feat that excludes spells with a range of "Touch" won't be altered by use of Arcane Reach.

If you were using the Reach Spell Metamagic feat, I'd probably rule differently, since in that case it's actually the range of the spell that changes, not just the range at which you can deliver the spell. But I'd need to check DotF to refresh my memory on the wording before I could confirm that.

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

It's not actually a metamagic ability. The spell isn't changing, as it would with a metamagic feat; the range of the spell is still "touch".

It's just that he can deliver that touch from 30 feet away.

In a way, it's similar to using a Spectral Hand - you can deliver a touch spell from a greater distance, but it's still a touch spell.

So I'd be inclined to say that any metamagic feat that excludes spells with a range of "Touch" won't be altered by use of Arcane Reach.

If you were using the Reach Spell Metamagic feat, I'd probably rule differently, since in that case it's actually the range of the spell that changes, not just the range at which you can deliver the spell. But I'd need to check DotF to refresh my memory on the wording before I could confirm that.

-Hyp.

I don't know - I'm not quite so sure, only becasue he must use a range attack to deliver, rather than melee touch.

It seems to me the feat and class ability should be treated the same way. The feat, I think, turns the spell into a 30' ray rather than touch - which is basically the same thing as the class ability that lets you touch from 30' away using a ranged melee attack.

Still, though, the spell itself in both cases has a range of "touch," even if you deliver it as a ray.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Still, though, the spell itself in both cases has a range of "touch," even if you deliver it as a ray.

This is why I said I'd have to check DotF - I thought the Reach Spell feat actually changed the spell into a Ray with a range of 30', which would mean its range is no longer touch, and restrictions on spells with a range of touch wouldn't apply.

As opposed to the Arcane Reach ability, which doesn't change the range of the spell.

But if Reach Spell doesn't change the range of the spell, then I wouldn't allow a Chained Reach Spell either.

-Hyp.

 

[Dthamilaye]

Ok, thanks for the clear-up. I probably will use that and say that Arcane Reach and Chain Spell just dont work together . Easier for everyone and that sorcerer still has some use for his 7-9 slots/lvl...

 

[Artoomis]

This is why I said I'd have to check DotF - I thought the Reach Spell feat actually changed the spell into a Ray with a range of 30', which would mean its range is no longer touch, and restrictions on spells with a range of touch wouldn't apply...-Hyp.

Even if it did, I wouldn't allow it, I think. The spell still has a range of Touch in the book, and that's the real restriction, I think. A question of intent vs, letter of the rules, perhaps.

 

[Hypersmurf]

Even if it did, I wouldn't allow it, I think. The spell still has a range of Touch in the book, and that's the real restriction, I think. A question of intent vs, letter of the rules, perhaps.

Um? Wouldn't that mean that a Fire-Substituted Cone of Cold wouldn't bypass a troll's regeneration, because it still says "cold damage" in the book?

-Hyp.

 

[Artoomis]

Um? Wouldn't that mean that a Fire-Substituted Cone of Cold wouldn't bypass a troll's regeneration, because it still says "cold damage" in the book?

-Hyp.

No - it would mean that effects designed to work with ranged spells wouldn't work with non-ranged (melee touch) spells even if delivered at 30' (if I went that route).

Either that, or they would work as ranged touch rays regardless of the wording. If you can deliver a spell at 30' and it takes a ranged attack to do so, it's not a "touch" range any more - it violates the definition.

I'd either allow it or not, and not depend on looking for exacting language, as the rules have shown time and time again that the language within them is simply not that precise.

An energy-subsituted spell is obviously meant to change the energy type, with all that entails. When a "touch" spell can be delivered with a 30' ranged attack, doesn't everything connected with that change - the attack roll now depends upon Dex, etc.?

I think one should decide which way you think it was meant to work, and then stick with that unless the language is very, very clear. I see the language here as being less than clear - for clarity they really should have stated whether the range changes for the purposes of effects that can only be applied to ranged spells.

The rules do not say what to do with a 30' (or 60') touch. Touch is melee range, a Ray is a ranged touch. You have to choose whichever you think fits best, either way is not right. A little flavor text about HOW you deliver this ranged touch would have solved this problem most likely.

Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don’t have to see the creature you’re trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature you’re aiming at.
If a ray spell has a duration, it’s the duration of the effect that the ray causes, not the length of time the ray itself persists.
If a ray spell deals damage, you can score a critical hit just as if it were a weapon. A ray spell threatens a critical hit on a natural roll of 20 and deals double damage on a successful critical hit.

Hmmm... anything here not apply to the Divine Reach or Arcane Reach ability? If not, then the ability is effectly adding an "effect:ray" and replacing range "touch" with range: 30' (or 60') to the spell. The ability does not say that it does that, but it sure looks like it. This leaves one to decide if it really is a ray or something strange and new - a ranged touch that is not a ray. I think you could go either way - it should have been made clear in the language itself.

This means it's all down to intent, once again. We've both stated our positions, now Mr./Ms./Mrs. DM, whoever you are, decide how you'd like to run it.

I'll certainly be asking my DM. Chaining a Heal spell is pretty darn cool - but it just does not seem right.

 

[Hypersmurf]

This leaves one to decide if it really is a ray or something strange and new - a ranged touch that is not a ray.

You mean like Melf's Acid Arrow, for example? That's a ranged touch that is not a ray.

If two spells are identical in description, flavour, statistics, and every other respect.. with the sole exception that one bears the [Death] descriptor and the other does not... then Death Ward will block one, but not the other.

Just because something seems to behave like a Ray doesn't make it a Ray, unless it states "Effect: Ray". Weapon Focus: Ray gives no bonus to the attack roll with Melf's Acid Arrow. Changing MAA to state "Effect: Ray", rather than "Effect: one arrow of acid" would have almost zero mechanical effect on the game... but that Weapon Focus feat would apply where it did not previously.

Arcane Reach is an ability that allows the Archmage to deliver a spell with a range of touch from 30 feet away by means of a ranged touch attack. Reach Spell takes a spell with a range of touch, and changes the spell to give it a range of 30 feet.

To the casual bystander, the result is the same in both cases. But for certain related effects, the two are different. In one case, the range of the spell is still "Touch", and in the other case, the range of the spell becomes 30'.

-Hyp.

 

[Black Knight Irios]

Chained Heal, who would ever do that,
Heal 6 + Chain 3 = 9
Heal, Mass = 9 but way better!