Are Asians not allowed in Superhero Movies?

[Umbran]

Isn't the character type of the old Asian who is just there to teach the white guy mystical Asian secrets a racist concept to begin with?

Yep.

The Ancient One and the Mandarin were racist stereotypes to begin with. I kind of forgive that, in that they were created in the early 1960s, and I don't generally blame people for failing to be ahead of their times. But using them as-is would have been bad.

So, is it better to leave a racist concept like that or get rid of it by replacing it with a white person?

Well, as we consider this, we should remember that Ben Kingsley's birth name is Krishna Pandit Bhanji.

I think, with both of these characters, they are actually getting rid of the stereotype - Kingsley's Mandarin was nothing much like the original comic book stereotype one. I am expecting much the same for The Ancient One. They are merely reusing part of the concepts, and revamping them for the modern era.

 

[Umbran]

The Sensei IS a classic of Asian fiction, where it is an Asian teaching fellow Asians. However, it isn't as if Asians are the only ones with mystic figures who educate their own people- you'll find them in the native lore of EVERY culture, even African ones.

The overall thing at hand is what is sometimes referred to as "romantic racism", where a member of a dominant group projects fantasies onto other groups - the Magical Negro, the Noble Savage, and so on.

I think we should differentiate - the typical Magical Negro is a supporting character, but *not* typically a mentor passing on spiritual or mystical power. There's a subtle difference - the idea that the white man can/will take on the Asian power, but *doesn't* take on the African power.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I think we should differentiate - the typical Magical Negro is a supporting character, but *not* typically a mentor passing on spiritual or mystical power. There's a subtle difference - the idea that the white man can/will take on the Asian power, but *doesn't* take on the African power.

I don't know that we can make that distinction- Morpheus (The Matrix), Bagger Vance (The Legend of Bagger Vance), Willie Brown (Crossroads)* and many others clearly show white people "the Way", making them better, stronger, faster...







* Special footnote: Ralph Macchio has the distinction of having tutelage from both a Sensei (Mr. Miyagi) AND a Magical Negro (Willie Brown), so all you haters better step back!

 

[Rune]

Wasn't really interested in the movie, so didn't see it...but how do you characterize Noah as the villain in the story of the biblical flood?

Well, see the movie, and you'll know (it's currently on Netflix, incidentally). Also, it's worth noting that the movie kind of creates its own setting. It would be more accurate to say that it is inspired by parts of the Book of Genesis than based on it--which is one reason that the casting wasn't actually all that jarring--at least to me. Hollywood's fake "historical piece" accent that every historical or fantasy movie uses still is, but I guess I'm just going to have to accept that.

I haven't seen it either - it looks awful! - but isn't Ray Winstone a main villain?

I thought the common criticism of that movie is that it had no people of colour in it at all, not that they were all cast as villains. But like I said, I haven't seen it, so I have no idea how true that is.

It's not awful--and a large part of that was their decision to turn Noah into (or, rather, reveal him as) a villain (the real villain, I would argue) halfway through the movie.

Then again, I didn't go in expecting it to suck, so I was able to immerse myself. If I had expected it to suck, I would have had a harder time with it, because the movie does seem to have been designed to be hard to acclimate to, especially in the beginning (if you'll pardon the phrasing). It's intended audience seems to be people who are familiar with the source material, but interested in an entirely different perspective for the retelling of it.

Of course, I like several of the movies that you have expressed distaste for on these boards, so you might well find the movie awful, anyway.

 

[gamerprinter]

It's not awful--and a large part of that was their decision to turn Noah into (or, rather, reveal him as) a villain (the real villain, I would argue) halfway through the movie.

Then again, I didn't go in expecting it to suck, so I was able to immerse myself. If I had expected it to suck, I would have had a harder time with it, because the movie does seem to have been designed to be hard to acclimate to, especially in the beginning (if you'll pardon the phrasing). It's intended audience seems to be people who are familiar with the source material, but interested in an entirely different perspective for the retelling of it.

Of course, I like several of the movies that you have expressed distaste for on these boards, so you might well find the movie awful, anyway.

Its pretty aweful, and I had no expectations.

 

[Umbran]

I don't know that we can make that distinction- Morpheus (The Matrix), Bagger Vance (The Legend of Bagger Vance), Willie Brown (Crossroads)* and many others clearly show white people "the Way", making them better, stronger, faster...

I have only seen the first of those you name directly, and I don't know of "many" others. My response is that three examples do not a shift in trope make.

 

[Rune]

Its pretty aweful, and I had no expectations.

Eh. As I implied at the end of my post, your mileage may vary. There are plenty of movies out there that I find to be awful; this wasn't one of them.

But they did seem to go out of their way to make the movie difficult to get into, especially, I think, for the people they had to figure would be most likely to watch a movie about a bible-story. These were clearly deliberate decisions--the wisdom of which are certainly debatable. But one thing the movie definitely does not do is pander to its most likely demographic.

Perfect? No way. But far more artful than it appears.

 

[gamerprinter]

But far more artful than it appears.

It was "artful" I'll grant that. The precursor race of robots, kind of threw me for a loop, as well, as in "why?". I wouldn't even call myself "Christian", so its not for religious reasons that I didn't like it.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I have only seen the first of those you name directly, and I don't know of "many" others. My response is that three examples do not a shift in trope make.

Bagger Vance is essentially Will Smith playing Krishna- he teaches a white guy, R. Junuh, how to play awesome golf and thus win at life. From the Wiki:

Similarities to the Hindu epic Mahabharata
The plot is roughly based on the Hindu sacred text the Bhagavad Gita, where the Warrior/Hero Arjuna (R. Junuh) refuses to fight. The god Krishna appears as Bhagavan (Bagger Vance) to help him to follow his path as the warrior and hero that he was meant to be.

Willie teaches classically trained Caucasian guitarist the blues soooooo well, he attracts the Devil's attention- Macchio's character defeats the Devil's own guitarist (Steve Vai) with a combination of his blues AND classical chops.

***

Just a smattering of more MNs who mentor & improve their Caucasian charges by showing 'em how to fish for themselves, as it were:

Morgan Freeman as Lucius Fox in Batman Begins- gives lots of tech/engineering help. (Freeman plays many Magic Negroes.)

In The Basketball Diaries, Ernie Hudson plays the only black character in the film, who does a lot to help the protagonist.

Guinan in Star Trek: The Next Generation. Nobody takes on her powers- they can't- but they DO all become better off after following her advice. ALWAYS.

Steven King examples:
Mother Abigail from The Stand

The Shining: Dick Hallorann, helps Danny learn about The Shining.

Lisa Simpson had her own personal Magical Negro in the form of Bleedin' Gums Murphy, who noted that she should listen when people tell her to brush her teeth and that she sang the blues pretty good for someone with no actual problems.

 

[Tonguez]

I think, with both of these characters, they are actually getting rid of the stereotype... I am expecting much the same for The Ancient One. They are merely reusing part of the concepts, and revamping them for the modern era.

The question will be how far they are willing to go to remove the Stereotype. For instance if Tilda Swintons Ancient One is presented as a "Celtic Wise Women" in the Grampians then I'd accepting that as a whole cloth reimagining of the character and kinda neat.
However if they keep the Ancient One in a hidden valley in Tibet, with all the trappings of a High Lama then they simply transfer the racism from stereotype to yellow-face, which is arguably worse. Of course I am getting ahead of myself here as we still have no idea how the Ancient One is being presented other than the casting choice.

Who knows I may be happily impressed by the reimagining