Are astral constructs thwarted by Prot. Evil?

[Benben]

If that's the case, Zad, doesn't that make them significantly more powerful than summoned monsters?

I'm not Zad nor do I play him on TV, but the Astral Construct series is seriously lacking in special ability flexibility. Astral Constructs never become anything more than bruisers. The Summon Monster, and in lesser respects Summon Nature's Ally, series eventually allow for some serious magical reinforcement to appear. Couatls, Lillends, Avorals, Bralanis, Janni, Hound Archons, and Lantern Archons all have very useful special abilities. So much so that they are often times more useful staying away from melee than entering it.

So allowing constructs to ignore Protection from Evil makes the series more powerful at low levels, but the lack of flexibility makes them weaker at lower levels. The dividing line is probably about when Unicorns and Archons show up: Summon Nature's Ally IV and Summon Monster IV respectively.

 

[Zad]

If that's the case, Zad, doesn't that make them significantly more powerful than summoned monsters?

Disclaimer: I have not played a character who has used summoned monsters extensively. However I have played a psion metacreative using constructs as his bread-n-butter.

That said, I think the answer is "Not more powerful, but differently powerful. " Personally I like them better as a player. Constructs are great from a player point of view - they are fairly consistent (no having 10,000 stat blocks handy) and you can put in special abilities to fit the situation, rather than having to figure out what creature to summon to suit the need, so it's faster and easier to deal with. And you have perfect mental control of the creature. And there are some good feats to let you whip up more.

On the other hand, summoned monsters are incredibly diverse. You can get something to suit any occasion or any special-ability-need. Ok, a summoned creature can't touch a Protected person. They can still use spell-like and supernatural abilities on them. They can throw things at them. And you can summon a creature suited to that need. The power of summoning monsters is not in the individual monster as much as the flexibility.

I think constructs might be slightly more powerful. However if they are, I think the fault lies in the summon-monster side of the equation.


For Flyspeck23: I know Pcat knows they're not summoned. His question was more "are they close enough that they should be included" and my response meant "no they're really not, they're not at all the same thing to me."

For Benben: I am Zad, and even I have not played him on TV.

 

[Stalker0]

For transparency purposes, I would agree to hold them to the prot rules, unless you are finding them to be weaker than summoned creatures

 

[James McMurray]

The Summon Monster, and in lesser respects Summon Nature's Ally, series eventually allow for some serious magical reinforcement to appear. Couatls, Lillends, Avorals, Bralanis, Janni, Hound Archons, and Lantern Archons all have very useful special abilities. So much so that they are often times more useful staying away from melee than entering it.

The primary problem with that statement is that sumoned creatures can't buff you very well (buffs fade when the summon fades) nor can they teleport or use extra-dimensional travel. And usually their buffs are relegated to along the lines of the Aid spell (in the case of celestials) or Enlarge Person (in the case of Janni).

Couatls: available at 17th or 18th level
The standard spell list is pretty much useless to that high level of a character
There are a few decent buffs on it, but they fade at the end of the duration of the SM spell
The combat spells will never bypass SR, and even if they do the save will be successful
If it could use its Plane Shift ability for you it might be more useful of a choice, but it can't.

Lillends: available at 15th or 16th level
Other than identify, the standard spell list is a joke for 15th level characters
I suppose Speak with Animals / Plants or Knock could be useful, but at 15th level those should already
be available

Avorals: available at 13th or 14th level
lay on hands for 70 hit points might be useful (assuming you have Augment Summons for the +14 from con)
everything else is fairly useless at those levels

Bralanis: available at 11th or 12th level
For those days when you rally need a gust of wind or a wind wall?

Janni: available at 11th or 12th level
If your cleric doesn't cast Heroe's Feast or Create Food and Water this might be useful

Hound Archons: available at 9th or 10th level
none of the spell-like abilties are worth wasting a 5th level slot for
you could have teleport of wall of Force instead

Lantern Archons: available at 7th or 8th level
I suppose the fact that they do touch attacks is nice, but lantern archons are
best used in droves via gate for taking down really big critters
with crap touch ACs.
A single one in a 7th level combat isn't going to do much good.

 

[Pielorinho]

The primary problem with that statement is that sumoned creatures can't buff you very well (buffs fade when the summon fades) nor can they teleport or use extra-dimensional travel.

Really? I didn't realize that. Can you point me to the right place in the rules?

I know they can't gate, but I thought for sure they could teleport.

Daniel

 

[James McMurray]

Its in the Summon Monster spell description (second paragraph in the SRD).

 

[Particle_Man]

Hmmm...I don't know about game balance, so I won't comment there.

But I can use analogies with other powers and spells. Astral Construct doesn't summon a creature from somewhere else. It (maybe) summons astral goo from somewhere else and shapes it into a creature. So does Prot. from evil protect against astral goo in general? Would it protect against other metacreativity attacks (one called whitefire or something, that shoots bolts of superheated astral goo at someone)? What about that feat that changes half of your spell (say, lightning bolt) into divine energy? Would that half be blocked by prot. from evil?

Another question is what about shadow magic. When used to duplicate a summon monster spell, does it take an actual (suitably templated?) monster from the shadow plane, or does it create a monster out of shadowy goo? And if the latter, and if an astral construct can hit someone with prot. from evil, can a shadow version of a summoned monster hit someone with prot. from evil? (This might allow a save vs. illusion, I suppose).

Points to ponder...

 

[Pielorinho]

Its in the Summon Monster spell description (second paragraph in the SRD).

Well, whaddya know? That changes one PC's off-time tactics pretty considerably: no more sending lantern archons to carry messages and money and supplies to and from his primary temple. Is this a change from 3.0, do you know?

Thanks for pointing me toward this!
Daniel

 

[James McMurray]

Unfortunately I can't seem to access the 3.0 SRD Spells (S) section right now. I'm pretty sure its a change from 3.0, or that it was always in effect but just buried in the spells description and they moved it to the Summon spells for clarity.

 

[Piratecat]

Sigh. I currently have six astral construct IXs trying to batter the party into tiny little pieces, but those bastards planned ahead.

Thanks for the advice!