Are Bards Fascinating in the Dungeon?

[takasi]

3. The bard has to fascinate every foe. If even one can launch an attack and does so, fascinate ends.

I think that's the DM's call. If the "leader" is fascinated, depending on the leadership hierarchy the goons may just wait for his orders to attack.

 

[Chimera]

This thread is fascinating.

My 3rd level Bard has had only one chance to fascinate someone so far. The Wizard mind control guy in TWotBS campaign, if anyone knows that one. I rolled a 3 and failed miserably.

I described it after the fact as:

"I hold up a small object and say "Oh look, shiny!""

 

[Mistwell]

I'd disagree with this.

If you allow the Spell Compendium (or, I think, Complete Adventurer) in your campaign, your bard should absolutely have inspirational boost. By casting inspirational boost (a swift spell) right before he starts singing inspire courage, he's giving everyone in the party +2 to attack and damage rolls (+3 once he hits 8th level).

Indeed. You may enjoy this thread:

http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=185372

Pick up the inexpensive Badge of Valor, and the Song of the Heart feat, and you're at +4 at third level. Add a Vest of the Legends at a later level (because it's pricey), and you are at a +5. Wield a Bow of Songs or Crystal Echoblade, and you're personally doing damage like a fighter while helping the rest of the party.

Bards don't suck, if you open up the game to some expansion books that short up some of the weaknesses the authors seem to have noticed.

 

[irdeggman]

Well then again, if you're claiming the act itself is a hostile action that breaks itself, then when would the opportunity ever arrive?

Check this post for my clarification.

http://www.enworld.org/showpost.php?p=3615292&postcount=13


But since it is a spell-like ability and they generate AoO that "means" it is not subtle (or quick) enough to ellude detection and time to react by the target (or someone threatening).


Whether or not it is a "distracting" situation that would preclude using Fascinate in the first place is up to the DM.

 

[Pielorinho]

But since it is a spell-like ability and they generate AoO that "means" it is not subtle (or quick) enough to ellude detection and time to react by the target (or someone threatening).

Yeah, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it comes across as threatening. As I mentioned before, if I'm pretending to be an innocent dude who's just woken up and gets up off the floor, that doesn't automatically indicate my hostile intent to my enemies. All it indicates is that someone inclined to attack me already gets a chance to swing at me as I let my guard down.

Which also makes me think that rolling initiative in such circumstances is dodgy: if I suddenly launch an attack, I'm entitled (I think) to a surprise round, as my victims are surprised. I'm certainly entitled to an attack against flatfooted opponents, if I am attacking under a circumstance in which they don't expect an attack. Rolling init a couple rounds in advance negates both possibilities.

Daniel

 

[Kid Charlemagne]

Funny thing: a hag's abilities, nasty as they are, can't overcome a troll's regeneration. We all listened at our leisure to the screams and tearings and munching sounds from that cell, before we summoned the troll out and subjected it to Charm Monster .

Now, that is a bard.

True, in some games the style of play that has developed won't easily support that kind of thing. But if you're willing to give it a shot, bards can be very effective.

 

[irdeggman]

Yeah, but it doesn't necessarily mean that it comes across as threatening. As I mentioned before, if I'm pretending to be an innocent dude who's just woken up and gets up off the floor, that doesn't automatically indicate my hostile intent to my enemies. All it indicates is that someone inclined to attack me already gets a chance to swing at me as I let my guard down.

But he has the choice to act so it is not a surprise.

Which also makes me think that rolling initiative in such circumstances is dodgy: if I suddenly launch an attack, I'm entitled (I think) to a surprise round, as my victims are surprised. I'm certainly entitled to an attack against flatfooted opponents, if I am attacking under a circumstance in which they don't expect an attack. Rolling init a couple rounds in advance negates both possibilities.

Daniel

Actually the only time you get a surprise round (per PHB/RAW) is when one side is unaware of the other.

SRD:

SURPRISE
When a combat starts, if you are not aware of your opponents and they are aware of you, you’re surprised.

Determining Awareness
Sometimes all the combatants on a side are aware of their opponents, sometimes none are, and sometimes only some of them are. Sometimes a few combatants on each side are aware and the other combatants on each side are unaware.

Determining awareness may call for Listen checks, Spot checks, or other checks.
The Surprise Round: If some but not all of the combatants are aware of their opponents, a surprise round happens before regular rounds begin. Any combatants aware of the opponents can act in the surprise round, so they roll for initiative. In initiative order (highest to lowest), combatants who started the battle aware of their opponents each take a standard action during the surprise round. You can also take free actions during the surprise round. If no one or everyone is surprised, no surprise round occurs.

Unaware Combatants: Combatants who are unaware at the start of battle don’t get to act in the surprise round. Unaware combatants are flat-footed because they have not acted yet, so they lose any Dexterity bonus to AC.

You "technically" also can not hide the fact that you are using a spell-like ability either. So while it makes a lot of sense from a role-playing and cinematic standpoint from a rules/RAW one it doesn't actually work that way. You would have to use some sort of house-rules to get there.

There really isn't a method to "fake out" someone into believing you are doing something else.

Sleight of Hand doesn't fit and Bluff (which would on the surface seem to be the most logical one) requires "interaction" unless using a "feint" type of action.

 

[Felix]

Fascinate, considerably because of Suggestion, is a great ability. But you really do have to look for places to work it in; it doesn't come as easily as casting Fireball for a Sorcerer, or setting up flanking for a Rogue.

 

[Pielorinho]

You "technically" also can not hide the fact that you are using a spell-like ability either. So while it makes a lot of sense from a role-playing and cinematic standpoint from a rules/RAW one it doesn't actually work that way. You would have to use some sort of house-rules to get there.

I'm notoriously disrespectful toward "RAW" as an approach to the rules . Or, rather, I think it's not the only valid way to interpret the rules: an interpretation that emphasizes common-sense is, IMO, not one that necessarily incorporates house-rules.

The only evidence that someone can notice the SP abilities is that if you're within their threatened zone, they get an AoO on you. There are no rules, AFAIK, talking about auto-noticing SP abilities otherwise. RAW, therefore, indicate that a guy standing 10' away from you has no way of noticing your use of a spell-like ability--unless he's holding a weapon with reach. That spear? It helps him see better.

Common sense, OTOH, indicates that something else is going on: actions that incur an AoO require that your guard is dropped. We may therefore reason that it's difficult (Concentration check) to keep your guard up while using a Sp ability. We don't necessarily need to conclude that it's obvious why your guard is not up.

Daniel

 

[Pielorinho]

Also, to the best of my knowledge, there's nothing about an AoO that automatically allows you to determine why you're being granted an AoO, if you want to get RAW about it .

Daniel