Are Critical Hits disappointing? And some options

[ValhallaGH]

So, why can a level 1 minion survive a (non-critical) 48 points of damage and a regular level 1 monster can't? How does that enhance the game?

 

[Nifft]

When global design goals clash with personal end-user goals, why assume the former has supremacy over the latter?

For one thing, there's a better, easier solution: don't use minions. He'll have zero trouble using the system unchanged by simply changing his encounter choices, and he won't be handing out unbalanced effects in "compensation".

For another thing, though, the idea that the "personal end-user goals" are actually served by the random, off-the-cuff ideas seen in this thread is... well, I'd call it a confusion of intent and outcome.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Llamas Notsheep]

Yeah, 2-hit minions would break minions, plain and simple. If you want something like that, just use some L-3 or so regular monsters. As long as PCs deal very different amounts of damage based on role, requiring a set number of hits (higher than 1) is going to break the system. Minions are already hard on strikers.

 

[MarkB]

So, why can a level 1 minion survive a (non-critical) 48 points of damage and a regular level 1 monster can't? How does that enhance the game?

A level 1 minion shouldn't generally be receiving 48 points of damage from a non-critical hit. If it's in a level-appropriate encounter, its opponents aren't likely to be capable of generating such a quantity of damage from a single non-critical hit.

 

[ValhallaGH]

A level 1 minion shouldn't generally be receiving 48 points of damage from a non-critical hit. If it's in a level-appropriate encounter, its opponents aren't likely to be capable of generating such a quantity of damage from a single non-critical hit.

Ulikely, sure. The fact that I've seen it means that it is possible (Paladin, daily power, divine sanction). And you can use a lesser amount (32, which is more than the full hp of most level 1 monsters) if you can't wrap your head around that much pain.

Regardless, your dodge doesn't change the relevance of the question, nor does it answer it.

I reinterate: Why can a level 1 minion survive a (non-critical) hit that deals enough damage to one-shot a regular level 1 monster? How does this enhanced minion survival enhance the game?

 

[Belphanior]

I reinterate: Why can a level 1 minion survive a (non-critical) hit that deals enough damage to one-shot a regular level 1 monster? How does this enhanced minion survival enhance the game?

Presumably, for the same reason why a level 1 minion who was missed by 10 Fireballs is alive, but his regular monster buddies aren't.

I should point out that I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here. I have no great need myself to make minions more sturdy, but the argumentation being levied against such a change doesn't stand up to scrutiny. Design goals? Shouldn't have to override to priorities of the players. Inconsistent behavior of minions with regards to damage? That is already inherent to, and even the point of, the minion system to begin with.

 

[Nifft]

Last time we had a beefy minions thread (two or three months ago?) the solution that I liked best was something like:

• 3 "Beefy" Minions (BMin) are worth 4 regular Minions
• Every BMin has a Damage Threshold (DT) determined by level and type
• DT is usually level +5
• Brutes have DT +5; Controllers have DT -2; Skirmishers and Soldiers are fine as-is
• BMin have only three states: Normal, Bloodied, and Dead
• Any damage greater than the DT will kill any BMin
• Any damage less than the DT will Bloody a Normal BMin
• Any damage will kill a Bloodied BMin

Now you have "beefy" Minions which take two Cleave side-effects to drop, or two Fireball misses, or one solid hit.

The book-keeping isn't much more than it would be for a regular Minion, and as a bonus, Tieflings get to use their racial ability a few extra times.

- - -

I would use these -- I feel they're balanced -- but I don't really have a problem with regular Minions.

Cheers, -- N

 

[ValhallaGH]

How is the minion system inconsistent with regards to damage? Minions have 1 hp and immunity to miss damage. Any attack that deals 1 hp (or more) of damage to a minion reduces it to 0 hp (or less). Unless the DM needs it to do otherwise, a 4E monster reduced to 0 or fewer hp is dead / unconscious.
This is exactly the same damage model used throughout the entire system.
Please explain how this is inconsistent, as that seems to be a major support for your statement.

Now, the proposed alternative is wildly inconsistent with the damage rules. Which I pointed out, and has yet to be responded to directly.

 

[ValhallaGH]

Last time we had a beefy minions thread (two or three months ago?) the solution that I liked best was something like:

• 3 "Beefy" Minions (BMin) are worth 4 regular Minions
• Every BMin has a Damage Threshold (DT) determined by level and type
• DT is usually level +5
• Brutes have DT +5; Controllers have DT -2; Skirmishers and Soldiers are fine as-is
• BMin have only three states: Normal, Bloodied, and Dead
• Any damage greater than the DT will kill any BMin
• Any damage less than the DT will Bloody a Normal BMin
• Any damage will kill a Bloodied BMin

Now you have "beefy" Minions which take two Cleave side-effects to drop, or two Fireball misses, or one solid hit.

The book-keeping isn't much more than it would be for a regular Minion, and as a bonus, Tieflings get to use their racial ability a few extra times.

- - -

I would use these -- I feel they're balanced -- but I don't really have a problem with regular Minions.

Cheers, -- N

Now this I do like. It nicely fixes a few of the "having fun" issues that I have with minions, removes their immunity to miss damage, gives them a bit of resistance to automatic damage, and still keeps them relatively easy to wade through (which is where they should be).

My issues with this idea are getting the math right, to get the appropriate rate of minion death at all levels. But the concept is solid (and what I was slowly working towards myself).

 

[Garthanos]

Aside from not using a damage threshold which seems too much bother... I do like having the secondary role in there though... so I might reconsider it.

My minions are 1 attack which targets and hits them defeats them any other type of damage bloodies them unless they are already bloodied in which case it defeats them. If they are bloodied they are healable and intimidateable etc. (they get healing surges 1 per tier).