Are Druids regarded as the most powerful class in 3.5?

[Stalker0]

The druid beats the cleric, but for none of the reasons mentioned. The druid wildshapes into a bird and casts call lightning from a nice safe place, and then flies over to a branch and chills while the cleric goes by.

WHAM!! A lightning bolt hits the cleric, but there's no indication whatsoever that its that little bird. Or is it, maybe its the squirell? Or the beetle on the ground? Or....the dreaded pinecone!!!

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I feel compelled to speak.

I have played a druid several times. I definitely support the idea that they are far and away the most versatile class in all but social situations.

The problem that I see so far, in fairness to all classes, is that this thread, like many others, only accounts for physical confrontation.

A druid is still a druid. He still has obligations to nature, evil or good. This is where a lot of classes get nipped as far as general power level. A druid has sworn oaths to defend nature, essentially. He may defend nature's cruelty or its beauty but he still defends it.

In fact my group (I confess that we are all older gamers who have generally speaking stopped worrying about the mechanics) has foresworn the class. What motivation, unless the game is crafted with the pc in mind, would compel a druid to stick with a group? The druid wants to tend his mountains, his forest, his swamp, etc. He has no desire to go meandering about the globe fixing everyones' problems. Sure, one or two issues might involve him, but generally speaking I think that druids should be NPCs or relegated to special games that will involve a lot of wilderness (think Ptolus in the woods).

Just my two bits.

I have 3 problems with this:

1) I don't see how protecting nature has any kind of downside.
2) If someone is going to play a druid, they should come up with a reason for being part of a group. Druids are not the only class that face this issue.
3) RPing has almost nothing to do with metagame issues (unless you're a paladin or use VoP or something like that). Someone could play a druid terribly, and this is bad ... but that has almost nothing to do with "uber-powerful" or "not uber-powerful" druids.

 

[Nifft]

A druid is still a druid. He still has obligations to nature, evil or good. This is where a lot of classes get nipped as far as general power level. A druid has sworn oaths to defend nature, essentially.

So... you feel the great physical confrontation power is compensated for by the role-playing restrictions?

I disagree with the premise, and feel that whatever your motivation may be, your mechanics should be balanced with everyone else's.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Technik4]

What motivation, unless the game is crafted with the pc in mind, would compel a druid to stick with a group? The druid wants to tend his mountains, his forest, his swamp, etc. He has no desire to go meandering about the globe fixing everyones' problems. Sure, one or two issues might involve him, but generally speaking I think that druids should be NPCs or relegated to special games that will involve a lot of wilderness (think Ptolus in the woods).

Just my two bits.

The same motivation that a cleric of a pacifist god may have for adventuring. To increase their prestige (druids can be selfish right?) so that they can be better anti-eco terrorists. To look out for their friends and make sure they abide nature (much like a Paladin adventures to stop evil, a druid could adventure to stop crimes against nature).

The one that wants to tend mountains, forests, swamps, etc is the Dryad, which usually is an NPC. Not that it would in any way break anything to ban druids, just saying theres enough fluffy justification to get them out and crawling through dungeons (abberations of nature must be destroyed!), etc etc.

Reference, please? We hunted, and the only rule we could find is that when monsters gain HD commensurate with their new size category, they grow into the new size category. The Animal Companion write-up and the MM both had no special exception text.

Animal Companion Basics

Bonus HD

Extra eight-sided (d8) Hit Dice, each of which gains a Constitution modifier, as normal. Remember that extra Hit Dice improve the animal companion’s base attack and base save bonuses. An animal companion’s base attack bonus is the same as that of a druid of a level equal to the animal’s HD. An animal companion has good Fortitude and Reflex saves (treat it as a character whose level equals the animal’s HD). An animal companion gains additional skill points and feats for bonus HD as normal for advancing a monster’s Hit Dice.
Natural Armor Adj.

In the animal companion class ability, the SRD doesn't mention increasing the animal's size. It doesn't say "Don't increase the size of your animal companion as it gains HD", but then again it doesn't tell you to either. In the absence of any direct mentioning of increasing the size, why would you?

Size Increases

A creature may become larger when its Hit Dice are increased (the new size is noted parenthetically in the monster’s Advancement entry).

Emphasis mine. Increasing HD may increase size, it doesn't tell you to explicitly make everything bigger as it gains HD. The cunning old wolf is not necessarily going to grow in size as it ages...(and while the game is fantasy, I think real-world context helps - increasing the size of an animal seems like an exception (for DMs to play around with) rather than the rule). Not to mention, it makes for disgusting pets

 

[HeavenShallBurn]

It doesn't say "Don't increase the size of your animal companion as it gains HD", but then again it doesn't tell you to either. In the absence of any direct mentioning of increasing the size, why would you?

For precisely the reason you point out. The default assumption on animals is that increasing HD past a certain point increases size.

it doesn't tell you to explicitly make everything bigger as it gains HD. The cunning old wolf is not necessarily going to grow in size as it ages...

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm
Because the MM seems to clearly indicate that at least in D&D that is precisely the case, at 4hd the wolf should increase in size to become large. Beyond that there is no further guideline but the text indicates that you are increasing the animal's HD and doesn't say you do NOT increase size, which is the assumed baseline from the MM entry.

 

[RedFox]

For precisely the reason you point out. The default assumption on animals is that increasing HD past a certain point increases size.


http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/wolf.htm
Because the MM seems to clearly indicate that at least in D&D that is precisely the case, at 4hd the wolf should increase in size to become large. Beyond that there is no further guideline but the text indicates that you are increasing the animal's HD and doesn't say you do NOT increase size, which is the assumed baseline from the MM entry.

Exactly. There's textual evidence to play it either way (that "may" is a fair point).

Mind you, I wasn't complaining about the pseudo-dire wolf we had in the party. We've an undersized party at 3 players and an additional front-line fighter is a welcome addition.

 

[Jeff Wilder]

Once I reached 6th level spells and was able to unleash the unholy power which is fire seed holly berries though... unbuffed that is 8d8+96 damage, which is pretty bad news.

I'd thought you were calculating incorrectly, but you weren't.

It's a lot of damage, but the holly berry fire seeds do have to be placed by hands. That's a significant limitation.

 

[VirgilCaine]

Wildshape abuse is easily countered by ruling that they can only adopt of the form of creatures they are familiar with. . . Never seen a dire bear? well, you can't turn into one.

That's why there are dire versions of animals from all terrains.

 

[GoodKingJayIII]

Out of curiosity, for those of you that increase Animal Companion's size with its HD, do you also include the standard bonuses/penalties that come from a typical size increase for an animal (i.e., bonus strength, reduced dexterity, movement speed, etc.).

Also: do you increase the paladin's mount size when it receives bonus hit dice?

FWIW, I don't think Druid animal companions are meant to increase in size. That is a huge power boost for most creatures, even without the massive strength bumps that usually coincide with a size increase. I'd still allow other things associated with HD increase though (increased feats, skills, etc.)

 

[GreatLemur]

Cleric and druid are proably the two most powerful of the core classes, ironically they are proably the least played in the groups I've been in (people come up with character concepts for the other classes easier).

That actually seems really odd to me. I mean, sure, Druids are hugely pigeonholed by their class flavor--a classic example of a class being designed as a lifestyle and worldview, instead of just a set of abilities--but Clerics are one of the most fun and flexible classes to design concepts for. It's especially great when you've got a flexible setting and the DM lets you develop your own religion. In the game I'm in now, I think all but one of the players were originally planning Cleric concepts.