Are duelists overpowered?

[DemonAtheist]

my duelist just hit level 7 (12 total)...so i of course have elaborate parry at my disposal.

with all of my items and stats, i can jack up my ac to 39, and still have an attack bonus of +20. I dont have a problem with this, but fighting defensively, I have a higher AC and attack bonus than anyone in my party. It just seems kind of weird that a duelist is better at tanking damage than a fighter and at times our dwarven defender.

While I like it how it is (ook ac 39), I think it would make more sense if elaborate parry was a dodge bonus you could only declare on one enemy per round.

what do you think

 

[Ziggy]

my duelist just hit level 7 (12 total)...so i of course have elaborate parry at my disposal.

with all of my items and stats, i can jack up my ac to 39, and still have an attack bonus of +20. I dont have a problem with this, but fighting defensively, I have a higher AC and attack bonus than anyone in my party. It just seems kind of weird that a duelist is better at tanking damage than a fighter and at times our dwarven defender.

While I like it how it is (ook ac 39), I think it would make more sense if elaborate parry was a dodge bonus you could only declare on one enemy per round.

what do you think

I my experience (I've got one in my campaign) the duelist is pretty balanced in both 3.0 and 3.5 (albeit a little bit weaker in 3.5). Yes, you got that pretty +7 bonus on 7th level, but this is more or less in line with what you'll get from armor at the same level. And thus the difference in AC is mainly from the Canny Defence, not a gamebreaker by any measure.

OTOH the numbers you quote is pretty obscene. I kind of wonder how you got there ? First off, the entry requirement for Duelist is BAB +6, so you need to be minimum 6th level to take it. It also requires Tumble 5 ranks, somthing impossible to achive with a Core Class with full BAB, the fastest way there using Core rules is Rogue1/Fighter6. Thus you'll normally be 14th level nefore you reach Elaborate Parry.

In the same vein, you'll have a BAB of maximum +12 at 12th level. With the -4 from Fighting Defensively, you need a +12 modifier to reach an attack bonus of +20. If we assume a +3 weapon, that means a DEX of 28, or some other bonuses or items not normally available to 12th level charachters. The same argument could be made for your AC, most duelists will only reach AC 30-35 at 12th level, even fighting defensively.

Thus I think that your numbers are more a result of extraordinary stats and/or equipment, not the class you've choosen. But feel free to prove me wrong by posting more details about the character.

.Ziggy

 

[Darklone]

Without quoting too many numbers, I think AC 39 while fighting defensively is not too high for a duelist level 7... though I'm as well surprised how you become duelist 7 at level 12.

 

[CCamfield]

OTOH the numbers you quote is pretty obscene. I kind of wonder how you got there ? First off, the entry requirement for Duelist is BAB +6, so you need to be minimum 6th level to take it. It also requires Tumble 5 ranks, somthing impossible to achive with a Core Class with full BAB, the fastest way there using Core rules is Rogue1/Fighter6. Thus you'll normally be 14th level nefore you reach Elaborate Parry.

Tumble is a cross-class skill for fighters, rangers, and paladins, but not restricted (in 3.5). It's particularly easy for a ranger to invest 2 skill points a level in Tumble.

 

[Crothian]

But to get 5 ranks in a cross class skill you still need to be 7th level.

 

[Scion]

But to get 5 ranks in a cross class skill you still need to be 7th level.

That is what cosmopolitan is for, yes?

Still, he would have to be level 6 + 7 = 13 in order to have that ability.. unless he was level drained and lost one of the other levels instead of the duelist I suppose.

 

[Liquidsabre]

That is what cosmopolitan is for, yes?

Still, he would have to be level 6 + 7 = 13 in order to have that ability.. unless he was level drained and lost one of the other levels instead of the duelist I suppose.

Cosmo is a FR feat and this feat has been changed in the PGtF to offer instead a +2 bonus to three skills (a regional feat).

A Swashbuckler (CW) is rather core and has a full BAB progression and access to Tumble as a class skill.

As for the Duelist with really high AC, I'm guessing there are some magic items at work here as well? If so, I wouldn't call the Duelist broken because of it. I too would like to see the math for the AC 39, so we can check those figures.

 

[DemonAtheist]

to answer everything:

my character is:
lvl 3 swashbuckler
lvl 3 barbarian
lvl 6 duelist

my items are:
bracers of armor (+3)
ring of protection (+2)
amulet of natural armor (+2)
gloves of dexterity (+4)

my relevant stats (items and bonuses included) are:
dex: 20
int: 20


so:
10 base
7 items
5 int
5 dex
5 combat expertise
7 elaborate parry
1 dodge

so it totals 40 with dodge

 

[Diirk]

Except you're only a 6 duelist, hence no elaborate parry.

 

[tensen]

I don't see how the combination of all those various magic items and feats makes the specific prestige class unbalanced... It is possible to do a lot of the same things with other classes.

In theory a swashbuckler/duelist should explode as their fighting styles are completely opposite.. dex versus intelligence.. but thats okay.. your GM allowed it.

on quick glance

Figher level 12
dex : 16

breastplate +4
heavy shield +3
ring of protection +2
amulet of natural armor +2
same cost equivalent as your example.

so:
10 base
9 armor
5 shield
4 items
3 dex
5 combat expertise (using the feat)
1 dodge (using feat)

Note, only a 37, but not too shabby when flatfooted.

I'm sure a mix-max person could come along and get the rest of the points. I was just going out with the straight seemingly equivalent, to show that even a straight fighter shouldn't be too far off. It is how you decide to play the character or mess with numbers.