Are feats the problem?

Maccwar

Explorer
First off I love D&D and I really enjoy 4e but one thing which really hurts my enjoyment of D&D is characters which are optimised so heavily as to break the normal encounter rules.

I am fed up of having to design encounters specifically to work around the aresenal available to the PCs. And lets be plain, if I run encounters from printed material sometimes they run as short as 3 rounds and the party doesn't even need to spend a single healing surge between them afterwards.

Would limiting feats tone down the level of potential abuse? How about forcing a character to take at least as many non combat feats as combat feats (i.e. ones which effect defences, damage, damage type, accuracy, combat movement etc)?

Can anyone see this working?
 

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First off I love D&D and I really enjoy 4e but one thing which really hurts my enjoyment of D&D is characters which are optimised so heavily as to break the normal encounter rules.

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Would limiting feats tone down the level of potential abuse? How about forcing a character to take at least as many non combat feats as combat feats (i.e. ones which effect defences, damage, damage type, accuracy, combat movement etc)?

These measures would help, but they won't fix the underlying problem.

The fundamental problem is the stacking of options - you use Theme X + race Y + feats A, B and C +... and get the most optimised character possible in a given feature.

3e tried to put a cap on this by naming the various bonus types - armour bonus, shield bonus, deflection bonus, enhancement bonus... and then stopping the various types from stacking.

4e does much the same thing, except that it typically names the bonuses by "what grants them" rather than some notion of "what they do" - so 4e has racial bonuses, feat bonuses, and so on.

However... those stacking rules are gradually degraded with time, as the designers add more and more options to the game. And to a fairly large extent this is deliberate - I forget whether it was in the "Spell Compendium" or the "Rules Compendium" (or online in relation to one of these), but I recall the 3e designers commenting that they'd added a holy bonus type in addition to a sacred bonus type (or something of that sort), because otherwise there would be no point in using the new spell they had introduced in place of an existing spell - if both used the same type they wouldn't stack (so why not use the original), but if they used different types, people would use both.

And so, you get more modifiers that can be applied to a given aspect of the character, and which are designed to stack - deliberately circumventing the stacking rules that are intended precisely to prevent this sort of thing!

The actual solution is for WotC to decide up-front how many types of bonuses they will have, and how far they want total bonuses to go, and build the game accordingly. Once they reach the point where all these bonuses are fully saturated, they need to have the discipline to accept, "that's it, we're done, the game is complete". (For financial reasons, of course, they won't actually do this. But they should.)
 

First off I love D&D and I really enjoy 4e but one thing which really hurts my enjoyment of D&D is characters which are optimised so heavily as to break the normal encounter rules.

I am fed up of having to design encounters specifically to work around the aresenal available to the PCs. And lets be plain, if I run encounters from printed material sometimes they run as short as 3 rounds and the party doesn't even need to spend a single healing surge between them afterwards.

Would limiting feats tone down the level of potential abuse? How about forcing a character to take at least as many non combat feats as combat feats (i.e. ones which effect defences, damage, damage type, accuracy, combat movement etc)?

Can anyone see this working?

Feats aren't the problem any more than the straw is the problem when it breaks the camel's back.

First, let me suggest that you double-check your players' sheets for anything that is out of place. IME, a simple problem that can be detected by such is the root of most serious OP problems.

Assuming everything on the sheets is in place, consider just tweaking the printed encounters. Sure, it might be bothersome, but it will be less trouble, ime, than telling players to not build their characters within rules-legal guidelines. Players can get picky about that. It is much harder to get picky about(or even notice, ime!) a future opponents' defenses increasing slightly.
 

Feats are, IMO, the primary culprit behind optimisation. Without them, you simply can't gain the synergies that all the broken and imbalanced builds are based around.

I've said this before that feats shouldn't boost damage, defences or attacks, whether directly or indirectly. This alone would all but eliminate the problem of optimisation.
 

The first moment I cracked open my 3E book and read about feats for the first time, I knew that it was a balance problem in the making.

It's really inevitable.

But, it's not just feats. There were a lot of 3E spells that were unbalanced right out of the box such as Haste.


4E tried to fix this with spells by calling every type of attack a power, and then by making nearly all attack powers do damage plus some type of bonus effect. By doing this, they could regulate the amount of damage, how many targets the power affected, and the usefulness of an effect against other powers of the same level.

Unfortunately, just like with feats, this did not work as well as the designers envisioned. For nearly every class and nearly every level, about a third of all powers just plain suck, about a third are ok, and about a third are pretty darn good. The ratio varies somewhat, but there are very few class/levels where players say "Boy, these are all good. I cannot choose at all.".

As the game has matured, so have the players gotten more experienced. Most players now know what works well and what does not (even the designers did not really know that when they first designed 4E), so now it's no longer just feats. It's powers as well. It's not so much the feat that adds +1 damage per tier, it's the fact that the feat is doing so for the best possible power at each level.

The other side of the coin is that many players, regardless of their DM's roleplaying claims to the contrary, are playing D&D for the combat. The players might roleplay and interact, and even do so well, but they aren't just sitting at the table for the theater aspect of D&D. Very few players are really seriously roleplaying monkeys. Instead, many players are there to kill things. A major portion of the D&D enjoyment experience for many players is the combat, so players are going to put their PCs together to get an edge in combat.

You really very rarely hear about the player who min-maxed all of the roleplaying / non=combat feats and his or her PC seems worse than the rest of the PCs. There are players who often make tactical mistakes and/or designed the PC poorly with power selection, and so it seems like the PC isn't very combat capable, but it's rare that the reason is because the player took a bunch of non-combat feats.


So, one cannot really look at it in a bubble. It's not just feats. It's not just powers. It's not just magic items. And it's not just PC synergy. All 4 sides of the power gaming square add to the overall umph of the team's effectiveness.

One way the DM can fix this is by very carefully handing out magic items. Don't hand out the absolute best items, even if they are on a player's wish list. Instead, hand out items that are more situationally useful. The players control 3 of the 4 sides of the power gaming square, but the DM controls the 4th.

I don't think a DM has to put in rules on feat selection. The DM has to control the game via limiting uber magic item acquisition and by challenging the PCs in other ways such as with stronger encounters, or encounters with disadvantageous terrain. Water works great and splitting up a room with many different water ways (creeks, canals, etc.) works even better. Having monsters that come out of the water and go back in to come out in a different place works awesome. Having Artillery snipers where the PCs have problems reaching them. Having undead with phasing allows the undead to go through walls and avoid PCs. Using mazes that split the party up. Using traps that hold a few PCs in a given place while the monsters focus fire on the PCs who are not held is extremely effective.

And one of the best encounter design tools is size of room. Rooms that are large result in PCs that get split apart out of the range 5 of most leaders. It's difficult for the PCs to quickly attack artillery and controllers from 4 different directions in a large room. Rooms that are small can result in many PCs getting hit by area effects. A single narrow 5 foot wide corridor to fight in will create fits for players.

There are a lot of ways to make encounters more challenging without increasing the monster difficulty at all. The number one way to challenge players at any level in 4E is to take away the PCs advantages. For example, the main advantage that PCs have that NPCs do not have is healing. Take out the leader(s) and the rest of the PCs are in trouble. Another advantage that PCs have is Strikers. A party without strikers is a lot less effective than one with strikers. So, take out the striker(s) early and the rest of the team doesn't do enough damage to take out NPCs quickly, so the encounter becomes longer by definition, the NPCs get more attacks in, and the party uses up more resources.

Players get used to the specific advantages that their PCs have, but the DM does not have to target those specific advantages. Just by controlling the terrain and which targets the monsters attack makes a huge difference in whether the players can use the advantages that their PCs have.

Don't limit which feats the players can take, limit their magic item and tactical options. They'll hate you for it. ;)
 

First take the hybrid rules out and shoot them. They are called out as unbalanced and for a very good reason. Classic problem builds do 90% of the damage of a top tier striker (Twin Striking Ranger - which means they do more damage than most other specialist strikers) and have 50% of the healing of a specialist leader. On the other hand naively built hybrids are poor. And there is pretty much no conceptual space that doesn't revolve round being a hybrid that requires a hybrid class that I can think of.

Then the feats are a problem - the difference between a good and a bad feat is only a few percent, but this compounds over the number of feats you get. The real offender with good feats are rangers (or hybrid rangers) who get twice the bonus of static damage that anyone else does due to Twin Strike.
 

You really very rarely hear about the player who min-maxed all of the roleplaying / non=combat feats and his or her PC seems worse than the rest of the PCs. There are players who often make tactical mistakes and/or designed the PC poorly with power selection, and so it seems like the PC isn't very combat capable, but it's rare that the reason is because the player took a bunch of non-combat feats.

Honestly, most of the time I've seen PCs optimise for non-combat they are leaders (normally bards or lazyishlords) and thus not being measured on direct combat power. Who cares if you don't have weapon focus/expertise if someone else takes all your attacks anyway?
 

Are you using MM1 monsters or the revised MM3 stats? If you have MM1 monsters, you have to rebuild them. Yes, that sucks, but it was intended to fix some of the problems you are seeing (especially with modules). Regardless, there are a huge host of factors here and the simple answer that I'm not seeing what you're seeing leads me to believe part of the problem is on the DM and not the feat bloat or optimization.
 

First off I love D&D and I really enjoy 4e but one thing which really hurts my enjoyment of D&D is characters which are optimised so heavily as to break the normal encounter rules.

I am fed up of having to design encounters specifically to work around the aresenal available to the PCs. And lets be plain, if I run encounters from printed material sometimes they run as short as 3 rounds and the party doesn't even need to spend a single healing surge between them afterwards.

Would limiting feats tone down the level of potential abuse? How about forcing a character to take at least as many non combat feats as combat feats (i.e. ones which effect defences, damage, damage type, accuracy, combat movement etc)?

Can anyone see this working?

I am very interested in reading about the actual way your PCs "break the normal encounter rules". Because at the moment, with just this general discription, I cannot wrap my mind around it completely. If you could give one or two examples, that would probably help (opponents, level, damage taken).
Otherwise, this will turn into a "there is a general problem with 4E" kind of thread, which does not help you one bit (and by the way, I do not think it is true).

To me your problem sounds like you want to challenge the PCs more. And if I read you correctly, you want to work "around" the PCs capabilities.
I think this is an unwise thing to do if you want to do it on a constant basis. If the players get the feeling that the abilities of their PCs are always inedequate all the time, they will be frustrated. So do it every once in a while, but otherwise increase the challenge in a different way.

I have not had your problem, but then again, I do not play with unmodified published material. For me, 3e power gaming has effectively ended with 4E, for which I am glad.
But I have made the experience that, to challenge PCs, you should increase the encounter level by placing more opponents on the board, not higher leveled ones. Minions seem a very big influence as well.
Changing published encounters is a piece of cake these days with the monster builder. You will not spend a lot of time preparing your own encounters with the available tools. It is well worth it.

As a GM you most certainly have the right to restrict the choice of feats. But I doubt that having to choose "flavor" feats will make your players happy. You might end up without a group to play with.
 

I've said this before that feats shouldn't boost damage, defences or attacks, whether directly or indirectly. This alone would all but eliminate the problem of optimisation.
By creating an edition without players. I wouldn't want to play such a game
 

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